Erwin on the Upgrade

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

The upgrade program is an inducement for current owners to hang on to their cams, and for future owners to buy used cams and upgrade them. Neither of which is the kind of business plan that would get approved by people of Lee's and Kaufmann's considerable experience and savvy. So my take is that it's just more marketing spin...Leica's been replacing too many shutters under warranty, or else the M8 shutter (a carryover from the R9 which is probably no longer in actual production) is too expensive and they're buying-in a more widely used generic, and so let's sell everybody a new shutter, and while we're at it, a $50 glass crystal. Let everyone think the M8 will be upgraded to full-frame, who's gonna sue us if we say in the end it wasn't possible and here's the M9. That's the long and short of it. When I see a full frame chip available to upgrade my M8 I'll believe it.

 

As to Putz, well, he really must love the sound of his own voice...but then don't we all...but maybe not enough to run our own websites

 

 

Sorry but your wrong on replacing damaged shutters that is not the case at all and do you have real hard data. There are very few damaged shutters from what Leica told me and some of it was user error. Your speculating and that is not the case. People simply want a quiet shutter and that has been a major complaint on the M8.

[charlesphoto99]

Great I will take the tech pan. reality is if it goes full frame we gain MPX and in short more resolution and truth be told we get more resolution from the lenses which we are barely pushing right now. Without a engineering degree i would say we could go 22MPX on these leica lenses before we start going to a point of no return. The key in my book is we have a lot of elbow room , let's take advantage of it and the only reason i want full frame is to gain resolution.

 

I would prefer the sensor remain in the 12-16 mp range. I could really care less about more resolution but better high ISO performance. 22 mp is overkill and a lot to deal with in post. I think by that point one may as well go to a medium format camera. I would prefer the M remain true to its photojournalism roots. And remember a bigger sensor means longer write times, more battery usage, and therefore a potentially bigger camera. Then the bitching and moaning would never stop.

 

The main reason to go full frame is so my 24 is a true 24 and can shot wide at f2.8 instead of being stuck with f4. Increased resolution should just be a byproduct of that. I think the R10 will be the go to tool for those commercial shooters looking to unburden themselves from MF. At least that should be Leica's goal.

[stunsworth]

Sorry but your wrong on replacing damaged shutters that is not the case at all and do you have real hard data. There are very few damaged shutters from what Leica told me and some of it was user error. Your speculating and that is not the case. People simply want a quiet shutter and that has been a major complaint on the M8.

 

I think it's safe to say that if there were problems with the shutters we'd have heard about it here, and to the best of my knowledge that hasn't been the case.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

It will be around 18 mpx i would speculate but the lenses could handle more is what i was pointing at. FF itself as far as lenses , i really don't care. Just a number really with lenses. Try a CV 12mm out , it's more than scary sharp. I got amazing images from Moab with it so i am really not to worried there on the lens issue . Not only that on the long end we may not be as happy. That nice 90mm may not be long enough. High Iso would be sweet at least 1 stop would make me happy a good 1250.

[thrid]

While I welcome the upgrade program and think it's a great idea, I'm certain that the only strategy that is going to save Leica in the long term, is lowering the cost of their products.

 

To the vast majority of the market the idea of a $5500 digital camera body, that isn't a technological tour de force like the Nikon D3 makes zero sense.

 

Currently, individual lenses like the 2/28 Cron and 1.4/35 Summilux ASPH cost more than a Canon 5D. At $6000 the Noctilux costs as much as a new Nikon D3 with a basic lens.

 

You don't have to have a degree in marketing to figure out that once the pool of well to do diehards have made their purchases, sales are going to fall off dramatically.

 

I've purchased several M bodies and lenses new, so I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. But even people like me are balking at the last few rounds of price increases and I can't blame all of it on the falling dollar.

 

At some point Leica reached the point where the perceived value of their products no longer equals the prices they are charging, unless money is of little concern to the customer. That's a bad thing.

 

Hopefully Leica management is aware of this and the introduction of the Summarit line is a positive sign. But the cost of the body has to come down or at the very least they have to create a tiered product line to widen their customer base. The development of new digital products is very expensive and Leica's competition has very deep pockets. The upgrade program alone isn't going to fuel the machine. They need to increase sales and they need to do it before Zeiss/Cosina or someone else snatches that market from right under their nose.

[guy]

It will be around 18 mpx i would speculate but the lenses could handle more is what i was pointing at. FF itself as far as lenses , i really don't care. Just a number really with lenses. Try a CV 12mm out , it's more than scary sharp. I got amazing images from Moab with it so i am really not to worried there on the lens issue . Not only that on the long end we may not be as happy. That nice 90mm may not be long enough. High Iso would be sweet at least 1 stop would make me happy a good 1250.

 

I'd rather have three stops...! But I completely echo the sentiment. I'm sure you're doing this already, Guy, but next time you're chatting with the Leica crew do please tell them the strength of feeling for a better sensor available as an upgrade (and not necessarily a bigger sensor). That's my must-have upgrade; and if they came out with it, damn it, I'd more than likely get the shutter quietened at the same time...

[thrid]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

12MP is pretty good, if you don't have to crop. 16MP would be nice, because we have to crop a lot, due to the framelines.

 

But more than anything I want more DR, along the lines of what the Fuji S5 Pro is capable of (10 useable stops, 16bit).

[Eikonphoto]

Sorry but your wrong on replacing damaged shutters that is not the case at all and do you have real hard data. There are very few damaged shutters from what Leica told me and some of it was user error. Your speculating and that is not the case. People simply want a quiet shutter and that has been a major complaint on the M8.

Guy

I'm a pro -and don't stick anything into any camera ..... and there are a number of us out (pro or otherwise) here who found ourselves with shutter damage with NO apparent cause! I think there is something wrong with the shutter system. I am not saying that is why Leica are making these changes, but frankly - having had the shutter replaced and having had to argue the point with Leica to not be charged for 'sticking something in the camera - which is pretty insulting BTW - I for one am glad they are changing the shutter.

[ptomsu]

Folks, sorry - BUT there is now damaged shutters which makes Leica do this upgrade. Never heard about this!

 

All speculation

[wparsonsgisnet]

... strategy that is going to save Leica in the long term, is lowering the cost of their products.

 

To the vast majority of the market the idea of a $5500 digital camera body, that isn't a technological tour de force like the Nikon D3 makes zero sense. QUOTE]

 

I was thinking about this post and it seems to me that if a camera costs more than $1,000 to $1,500 (using the current rate of horrendous economics) then the average consumer will not only not be interested but will also not have heard of it unless some movie star talks about it.

 

Which is to say that a Leica at $2,000 versus one at $5,000 doesn't make much difference for Leica in terms of the group of people who do know about and buy their cameras.

 

About a year ago I forecasted that this marvelous camera would be required for pros within 2 years. The corrollary to this statement is that it is the pros who will save Leica. There is still no sensitivity to price in that group, by and large.

 

It is Leica's charter in life to do two things: (1) make the best lenses, and (2) make things that last forever. I, for one, like this model. It helps to retain value in the product. Anyone interested in buying my (make up a name here) x-model American car that has 40,000 miles on it?

 

So, I don't think Leica has to worry about cracking a price floor. They have to:

1. manage to build and sell these little computers, when they didn't know about computers a little while ago,

2. Stop screwing up lens production -- I am referring specifically to the problems so many have with the 35 'lux-a lens. Leica has been trying to produce too much too fast (maybe),

3. Keep everyone happy with the LUP and wait for the pros to notice.

 

A little story: Some years ago I was shooting dance alongside a Nikon user (a pro). He looked at my lenses and said you should be using xxxxxxx. Which is to say, he didn't even use the camera and he knew which lenses I should be using.

 

The images from Leica glass are different. The pros know this, but didn't have a digital alternative until now.

 

Leica is on the right path. Price doesn't matter. All they need is their share of the over-$2,000 market.

[george_b]

.. Guy, but next time you're chatting with the Leica crew do please tell them the strength of feeling for a better sensor available as an upgrade (and not necessarily a bigger sensor). T...

 

.. and one that vibrates at startup & shutdown or some other innovation to remove of that damned dust which is the curse of inter-changable lens digital cameras .. such things are now common place on new DSLRs and the Digilux 3.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy

I'm a pro -and don't stick anything into any camera ..... and there are a number of us out (pro or otherwise) here who found ourselves with shutter damage with NO apparent cause! I think there is something wrong with the shutter system. I am not saying that is why Leica are making these changes, but frankly - having had the shutter replaced and having had to argue the point with Leica to not be charged for 'sticking something in the camera - which is pretty insulting BTW - I for one am glad they are changing the shutter.

 

Karen I remember your shutter failing along with about 4 others and leica mentioned 2 were user error. Shutters fail on all systems this is actually somewhat common. I seen them when i had Nikons and Canons . Not that rare to be honest. Now you simply got unlucky that yours failed no question but the thought of Leica replacing shutters because 5 out of 25,000 or so is no reason to replace shutters. Leica simply does not have a shutter issue as some would want to call it. It happens and it sucks no question and I feel for your issues on it. Trust me your not alone I had SDS twice on the same body. Not sure anyone got that honor except me. My body moved to Germany not just a vacation there. Shit happens we all know that but calling something in epidemic proportions is not correct either.

[Guest jimmy pro]

Sorry but your wrong on replacing damaged shutters that is not the case at all and do you have real hard data. There are very few damaged shutters from what Leica told me and some of it was user error. Your speculating and that is not the case. People simply want a quiet shutter and that has been a major complaint on the M8.

 

Yes I do have hard data that some shutters have been replaced. Mine for one, three others of people I know right here in New Jersey, because I ran into them while waiting to drop off or pick up something from service at Allendale. And no, nobody there accused any of us of poking our fingers into the shutters. How exactly would we of done that, changing film with the back open? Then there have been some mentioned on the 'net, including Karen above. However of the 2 scenarios I mentioned, I think the damage thing is the least likely, only because its the same shutter that's been very reliable in the R8 and R9. What I think is more likely the case, is that the new shutter being one used in a bunch of mid-level DSLR's, is available to Leica cheaper. And plus ya, it's a little quieter, which gives them a good way to spin it. But the real noise in the M8 is the motor that recocks the shutter and they haven't done nothing about that with the upgrade. Even if the new one is a little softer, all they really needed to do was seperate the shutter from the recock and the old shutter would be whisper quiet. Capisce?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

5 out of 25 thousand is not a reason to replace the fleet of shutters you know that as well as i do. From memory I think these are actually Nikon F5 shutters that also went in the R9 . Hardly mid level cameras. I sat and talked to Leica at PMA exactly about the shutters and the said there are a couple but certainly not the reason , the reason is people want a quiet shutter. They also said this new shutter is completely different with dampening and vibration reductions on it. They will not be using the old shutter and try to dampen it. If they could have done that we would have it already from the beginning. I sat and compared the 2 different shutters at PMA and there completely different with regards to noise and recocking.

[thrid]

Which is to say that a Leica at $2,000 versus one at $5,000 doesn't make much difference for Leica in terms of the group of people who do know about and buy their cameras.

 

About a year ago I forecasted that this marvelous camera would be required for pros within 2 years. The corrollary to this statement is that it is the pros who will save Leica. There is still no sensitivity to price in that group, by and large.

 

Not every pro shooter works for Vanity Fair, Newsweek or breaks $100,000 a year.

 

The average pro shooter can't afford to maintain a Canon/Nikon kit (usually two bodies, at least one pro level) along with a full Leica setup of two M8 bodies and lenses. You're looking at an easy $20,000-30,000 in gear.

 

The vast majority of working pros (freelance PJ, wedding shooters etc) shoot second tier bodies like a D200/D300, often a pair, because they can't afford two D3 or 1D series bodies.

 

Most news shooters can't make the M8 their main body for the simple reason that these days you need a long zoom lens, because the press is kept much further away from everyone, than in the hay days of the 1950's. So, the M8 becomes a specialized tool and at $15,000 - $20,000 for two bodies and lenses that's difficult to justify or even consider for most.

 

The pros that I speak to fall into three categories.

 

Group A considers the M8 an antique and don't understand how anyone can work with a camera that doesn't autofocus, doesn't use zoom lenses or shoot 5-10 fps. Basically they think people like us are either nuts or amateurs. For this group the camera isn't even on their radar.

 

Group B would love to own an M8, but chokes on the price. $5500 plus a lens ($1500-3400 for a 28mm) is out of their reach, especially for something that will not be their main body. They also need two of them, because no one in their right mind would go on an assignment without a backup.

 

Group C is financially well enough off to indulge in their passions. But these people are in the minority.

 

Also keep in mind that well heeled amateurs purchase the vast majority of pro bodies, not professionals. Unfortunately most of these buyers are gear heads, not photographers, and want the lastest wizbang gadget with the most buttons to impress their friends. The M8 does not appeal to most of these buyers, so Leica doesn't not make a sale on them.

 

On the other hand I probably know 15 people who want an M8, but only two of them ended up being able to afford one. If the camera was priced around $2,500-3,000 you could probably add another 5 or so to the owner list.

 

Leica is on the right path. Price doesn't matter. All they need is their share of the over-$2,000 market.

 

History is littered with the corpses of companies that followed that business model.

This is the very strategy that nearly killed Apple, before the return of Steve Jobs.

It's also the reason why Leica almost tanked two years ago.

 

Leica needs to move camera bodies and lenses to generate income they can pour into R&D. Every 2-3 years they need to upgrade the sensor to stay competitive, with the likes of similarly priced cameras by Nikon and Canon. This will become an even more pressing need with the arrival of the R10.

 

They may be able to hang on selling 10,000-12,000 M bodies per year at $5500 a shot, but they will struggle to build up a financial cushion big enough to weather tough time, bad marketing decisions or stay on the cutting edge of technology.

 

Increasing sales by lowering the cost of your products to a competitive level does not mean you have to sacrifice quality. It means adopting smarter production methods (see Summarit lenses), more efficient designs and establishing a tiered product line that allows not only the top percentage of buyers to enter your system.

[thpeters]

5 out of 25 thousand is not a reason to replace the fleet of shutters you know that as well as i do. From memory I think these are actually Nikon F5 shutters that also went in the R9 . Hardly mid level cameras. I sat and talked to Leica at PMA exactly about the shutters and the said there are a couple but certainly not the reason , the reason is people want a quiet shutter. They also said this new shutter is completely different with dampening and vibration reductions on it. They will not be using the old shutter and try to dampen it. If they could have done that we would have it already from the beginning. I sat and compared the 2 different shutters at PMA and there completely different with regards to noise and recocking.

 

Maybe Leica should learn to be more upfront and show us pictures from the total NEW shutter and from the motor that makes the sound also, I just like to see how they have fix it.

 

Theo

[charlesphoto99]

Leica needs to stop spending money on ridiculous 1 1/2 love stories and children's birthday parties.

[thpeters]

Leica needs to stop spending money on ridiculous 1 1/2 love stories and children's birthday parties.

 

Thank you Charles, I am 100% agree on that.

 

Theo

[hankg]

About a year ago I forecasted that this marvelous camera would be required for pros within 2 years. The corrollary to this statement is that it is the pros who will save Leica. There is still no sensitivity to price in that group, by and large.

 

Actually there is more price sensitivity with pros then with amateurs. The vast majority of full time photographers in the US actually earn very little. The average wedding photographer earns something like $30,000. Sure the successful wedding guys pull in $250,000+ but they represent a tiny percentage, same for PJ's. Commercial and corporate guys may average more but the average punter is still making far less then the photographers doing covers on Harpers and Vanity Fair and Pepsi's annual report.

 

Plus even for a photographer making more then a decent living. It's a business and if you want to stay in business you have to be able to cost justify it, something an amateur doesn't need to do (except maybe to his wife).

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Hakku]

Maybe Leica should learn to be more upfront and show us pictures from the total NEW shutter and from the motor that makes the sound also, I just like to see how they have fix it.

 

Theo

 

Interesting to read in latest LFI magazin ("M8 Forever") that Leica will offer to make the shutter quieter and a bit less shaking by changing the spring's tension.

 

No word, in this article, about replacing the whole shutter.

 

And, by the way, in the same issue of LFI there is a very informative article of mjh about future sensor technology which shows how Leica might achieve better DR some time ahead.

 

Horst