Is the M8 for you?

[andym911]

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I thought I would post this to see if others are going through the same or similar experience to myself after using the M8 for about a year.

 

In summary I am still not getting the output in B&W that I want.

I have tried and read most of what is available on the subject of RAW conversion,JFI profiles,channel mix etc. but at the end of the day I still don't get the look on the print (Epson 2400) that I am after.Often the results are too 'clean'.

What I am after is something close to the film look.I use digital darkroom, not wet, and so also output my scanned neg's on the 2400.

What sparked me to post is a recent thread I started on the film forum with an example of a shot I took on Neopan and with which I was very pleased.I printed this particular shot out at A4 size and it is really really good.It has a depth and tone range that I just do not get on the M8.It is not grain I am after it is just that certain something that I cannot quite put my finger on.

 

I am therefore slowly coming to the conclusion that for me the best gear could be traditional analog M6/7 with my current hybrid workflow, and for the times I really want digital for convenience to use my GRD (or another small digital).

 

I am not looking to start a Film vs Digital thread, neither am I M8 bashing...I am just genuinely interested in whether or not others are approaching the same crossroad that I feel to be.

BTW in terms of color shots on the M8 I am very happy but most of what i like to shoot is B&W.

look forward to your thoughts...here by the way the shot I posted on the film forum for your reference.

 

regards

 

Andy

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Have you tried film simulation from DXO or Alien Skin?

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[Guest Bernd Banken]

could it be the "asperical fingerprint" of modern lenses?

[farnz]

Andy,

 

I second Steve's comment: Alien Skin Exposure 2 has superb colour and B&W film emulation.

 

I'm used to the punch of Fuji Velvia transparency results and had struggled to create a look that came close until I tried Alien Skin. You can pick from a wide variety of B&W films including Agfa Scala, Tri-X, TMAX, HP5 etc and there's a 30-day free trial here:

 

Demo Downloads

 

Pete.

[spylaw4]

Does this plug-in require an installed Photoshop? If so - no use to me.

[andym911]

steve and pete,

 

i have not tried alien skin yet....I may do that if I can achieve something more than what I can today.

What is becoming apparent is that to achieve good B&W, the time needed in PP is quite considerable.

I don't mind that if I can get the results I want, and again to be clear, I am just an enthusiast who previously shot no more than 100 films per year on average (excluding vacation's) and am trying to find the right set up for me.

My M8 gets less usage just lately and am looking to find out if maybe its just not for me.

I look forward to seeing additional comments on others experience.

 

thanks for the replies so far.

 

regards

Andy

[j_w_davies]

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I wouldn't get too excited by Alien Skin's Exposure. I tried it for a while, and though it can give different looks to a file, it doesn't really compare to using film in the first place.

If you prefer the photographs you get from film there's no shame in still using it. I've recently "gone back", and though I lose in convenience, I feel I gain in overall quality.

[Photoskeptic]

Andy, I AM getting the bw output I need from the M8. As a matter of fact I believe that is where the M8 and Leica glass excell. After adjustments in ACR, my prints compare favorably with MF. My advice is to ignore what many of the so-called "experts" are saying and begin experimentation within the parameters that are offered. Good luck

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[papimuzo]

Andy,

can you explain, for the dumb user of BW M8 I am, what you dislike in your posted picture?

I am liking it

Best.

[bayerische]

The M8 is right for me.

[farnz]

Does this plug-in require an installed Photoshop? If so - no use to me

Brian,

 

It's advertised to work with any software that supports Photoshop plugins and particularly (Photoshop), Elements, Jasc/Corel Paint Shop Pro and Fireworks. It doesn't mention PhotoImpact or Serif so you might need to 'suck it and see' with the free demo.

 

I wouldn't get too excited by Alien Skin's Exposure. I tried it for a while, and though it can give different looks to a file, it doesn't really compare to using film in the first place.

A fair comment, J W. It was never intended to replace film but to emulate the look of certain film types on digital images. Once you have chosen your preferred film type you can further tweak the parameters to get closer to the look you're striving for.

 

I didn't try Exposure (1) so I can't compare it with version 2 but forum contributions indicate that version 2 is a significant advance on the original. YMMV.

 

Pete.

[andym911]

Andy,

can you explain, for the dumb user of BW M8 I am, what you dislike in your posted picture?

I am liking it

Best.

 

Marcel,

 

I actually like it too, this was shot with M6 and Neopan, and I am trying to get a look on the final print from the M8 which has a similar depth and feel to it.Now I know that the digital sensor will give a different look, not better, but different.

What I am missing is a certain 'soul' to the B&W files I am getting off the M8.

 

Thanks

 

Andy

[Dan States]

Andy, I believe what you are looking for is the slight imperfections that help move a picture from document to artistic representation. Grain, shadow depth and highlight control are all parts of this equation.

 

The biggest issue I've found is the lack of any perceivable grain in digital prints. This can be somewhat corrected in the M8 by shooting at 640 and TURNING OFF LUMINANCE NOISE REDUCTION in C1. To really get a film like image you can go to a lower contrast lens either from the older generations of Leica or from third partys (not Zeiss). When you get to the RAW conversion stage lower contrast lenses demand an increase in contrast during conversion. This helps to emphasize the natural "grain" in an M8 image at higher speeds.

 

I certainly understand your problem. I recently saw a Samsung LCD tv with Blue Ray that was so clear it stripped all the ambience out of the movie.

 

Hope you find what you are looking for. Great shot by the way!

 

Best wishes

Dan

[Jamie Roberts]

Andy--a lovely shot!!

 

First, what you can't put your finger on is the typical tone curve of film coupled with the way grain varies by film and by tonality.

 

The easiest way to get that tonality is to shoot film. But cameras like the M8 and the DMR are very capable of supplying a RAW file / latent image that can compete in terms of impact and tonality.

 

AlienSkin's Exposure V2 is very, very good in mimicking this look. So are about a dozen other actions, all of them requiring Photoshop, some of them are low cost.

 

The nice thing about Exposure is that it doesn't require a lot of post once you have a look you like. Everything about it, from sharpening to grain size, is adjustable. You can then automate the process in PS.

 

Of course, to get a really good image, you still have to test print and dodge and burn the way you would in the traditional darkroom. It's just less messy

 

So there are many ways to skin this particular cat, though it took me a very long time indeed to be satisfied with BW from digital.

 

(BTW-on printing, you should try the newest Harmon Photo Gloss AB, a baryta paper that really shines on BW).

 

A final PS--if you want to see some gorgeous BWs from the M8 (aside from the photo gallery), look here:

 

Jeff Ascough’s Blog Personal Pictures\

 

or here:

 

ten shots in black and white

 

(which is a new home for J. Borger's pictures I had on my photography blog, now moved to a different URL).

 

EDIT: I also agree with Dan on making sure you keep some noise in the file.

[andym911]

Dan and Jamie,

 

thanks both for the specific tips....

 

Dan you put it better than me and what you say is, I think, what I am after.I'll try some shooting at 640 and see where that takes me.

 

Jamie,

thanks for the comment and the info.....I am a generally someone who likes to get set on a certain workflow and not jump too much left and right.

I prefer standards that I know I can reproduce.

 

I will took a look at the link and there is some nice stuff for sure, both in B&W and color.I would be interested to see some of that printed.

thanks again

 

andy

[delander †]

Andy,

 

A couple of things cross my mind.

 

More depth is that to do with FF as opposed to 1.3 crop?

 

Personally I like the look of the M8 files when converted to B&W.

 

PSCS3 has a new B&W conversion menu which I find quite useful. Also have you used the gradient map function in Photoshop to convert to B&W, just another way which I find myself using more and more.

 

Jeff

[plasticman]

Hi Andy

 

I've also been mystified ocassionally by my preference for a film over a digital shot - I spoke about 'drama' or some other such indefinite term over on the film forum a couple of times.

 

I've also shot digital in the past and returned to it very recently by buying an R-D1s (which I'm really pleased with, incidentally) - so this isn't a digital-bashing post.

 

However, a post on Mark Antony's blog really helped to clarify for me why digital and film b&w are so different in final character - and it has nothing to do with grain, in itself.

 

There's a succinct and brilliant explanation for the incredible variation in tones in film b&w - here's an extract which relates to this discussion, I think:

 

"When film develops, it can form anywhere from 3 silver metal atoms minimum up to the entire grain, and grains can be stacked, and therefore the dynamic range of density is analogue in nature and virtually infinite. For practical purposes, it ranges from 0.1 - 3.0 density units in a normal negative B&W film."

 

When I first looked at my digital images I also felt there was some 'drama' missing that I see in my Portra shots - but Alien Skin just didn't do it for me, I'm afraid. They're trying to mimic something 'organic' with mathematical algorithms. Fine if adding grain is all you think you need to make your captures more 'film-like', but there's definitely still something missing - and Mark's brilliant explanation is the key, imo.

[andym911]

Mani hi,

 

interesting read and tx for 'sending me there'.

 

I agree, its not just grain.

 

andy

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[Guest jimmy pro]

IQ-wise, the M8 + digital printing is for me, and the M6/film + wet printing is for me. M6/film + scanning + digital printing is not for me, full digital or full analogue beats the hybrid four ways to Sunday.