Ruhayat Posted February 4, 2008 Share #1 Posted February 4, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi. I've been lurking in this forum for a while now, soaking in the knowledge. But now I have a decision to make, and hope to get some advice. I'm getting a windfall soon, and instead of upgrading my car I'm thinking of getting a proper digital rangefinder as an upgrade to my Digilux 2 and GRD (I'll keep one of them for backup; not sure which one yet). The problem is, the amount is comfortable but not bottomless, so I have a choice to make: for the ballpark figure, the dealer is offering me either a second-hand M8 body with new 28mm Nokton lens, or I can get a new Epson RD-1s with 35mm Summicron lens. What would be the best way to sink the cash, given that I probably won't be able to upgrade anything else for the next 2 years? Which of the components is likely to give me that Leica look: the body or the lens? Thanks in advance for any responses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 4, 2008 Posted February 4, 2008 Hi Ruhayat, Take a look here Which is more important: body or lens?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
R10dreamer Posted February 4, 2008 Share #2 Posted February 4, 2008 Unless the body doesn't work it is always the lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 4, 2008 Share #3 Posted February 4, 2008 I'd go for the M8 - but try to get the f1.9 28mm Ultron (is that the lens you're thinking of?). It's a cracking lens, and matches the M8 perfectly. The lens v body argument gets complicated with digital. In the 'old days' the body was just a carrier for the film and the lens (ok, I simplify, but you know what I mean :-), but with digital the body is the body _and_ the film. So the M8 doesn't just provide you with a better body mechanically, it also gives you better image quality too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhmitchell Posted February 4, 2008 Share #4 Posted February 4, 2008 Amri: I don't know whether it's a major windfall or not, but if you check this out you can get a great camera, a fantastic lens and have enough left over to upgrade your car to boot! Amazon.com: Panasonic DMC-L1 7.5MP Digital SLR Camera with Leica 14-50mm Mega O.I.S. Lens: Camera & Photo Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted February 4, 2008 Share #5 Posted February 4, 2008 Buy the Epson and you'll always wish for the M8 Lenses are much cheaper to add later... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hahn73 Posted February 4, 2008 Share #6 Posted February 4, 2008 I'd say it's a combination of the lens and sensor. If there was ANY other camera that was cheaper than the M8, could fit M lenses, had as good or better resolution with as good or better high ISO performance, I'd buy it in a second. To me, the body is just there to hold the sensor and the lens. The photo is the only thing that matters and the body doesn't really affect that in any significant manner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted February 4, 2008 Share #7 Posted February 4, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Buy the Epson and you'll always wish for the M8 ......................nah not wishing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivi1969 Posted February 4, 2008 Share #8 Posted February 4, 2008 I was in a very similar situation last month when I had 4500dlls to invest in new gear. Option 1 was a used M8 and a 35mm CV lens. Option 2 was a new R-D1S, a new 50mm Leica Summicron (ebay price), a new CV 35mm f2.5 PII a Billingham case and still have enough money left for another 28mm CV lens. I went for the later and no regrets at all, the M8 is a good camera but a very expensive one for the money, besides I am not interested in "upgrading". Of course any body is useless with a crappy lens on front, but the CV glass is basically as good as Leica so it is a matter of preferences. You cannot go wrong either way. Cheers! R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent M10 Posted February 4, 2008 Share #9 Posted February 4, 2008 In a recent article in LensWork, the author demonstrated that lenses are more important than megapixels. I'd go with the best lens that you could buy and then find a body to match it. Bodies come and go, but lenses are around for a long time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhayat Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share #10 Posted February 4, 2008 Aaaghh. I was afraid it would come up to something like this. Heh heh. I guess I was hoping for something more like a consensus... you know, so that I don't have to think. The last time I spent this much money it had four wheels and air-conditioning. Anyway. Thanks for the prompt and useful replies. Nick, yeah, I briefly considered the Digilux 3 but for that kind of money I'd like a rangefinder to make it worth it... for an SLR I think I'd go Nikon (if I want one, that is -- played with a friend's S5 Pro and yes it's nice but just not my style). Besides, you can now get a new Epson RD1s body for about the same price, and a 35mm Nokton is just $300 more. Steve, that makes sense... I never thought about it that way. Rivi and Imants: I've read a lot about the RD1s from actual users and they have been mostly positive. Actually, RD1s + Summicron was the route I initially wanted to take (but with 35mm instead of 50mm... I prefer wide). But then the dealer had a couple of M8 bodies in and he was willing to throw in a 28mm Color Skopar (not as good as Ultron, I take it?) at a good discount, and that made me wonder. Well, I have a couple more weeks to mull it over before the cash gets banked. I've played with both sets in the shop for a bit and I'm still a bit confused. In the meantime, additional suggestions are more than welcome. Thanks again! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhayat Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share #11 Posted February 4, 2008 In a recent article in LensWork, the author demonstrated that lenses are more important than megapixels. I'd go with the best lens that you could buy and then find a body to match it. Bodies come and go, but lenses are around for a long time. Yeah, that was one of the things I was considering as well. I mean, if I get a Summicron, 5 years from now it would still be a Summicron. Whereas there's no telling where technology would take the digital M body in the same time. (A digital Ikon body would be nice, I think... I like its heft and feel.) But then I read the threads where Maggie O was asking more or less the same question and everyone basically encouraged her to save up and just get an M8 instead of an RD1s. That makes it tougher. I don't want to plonk down the cash and then spend the next 2 years regretting it, you know what I mean? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 4, 2008 Share #12 Posted February 4, 2008 One other thing, Epson don't seem to have any long term commitment to the RD1. There's no sign of an RD2 for example. Leica on the other hand seem focussed on the M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Mondello Posted February 4, 2008 Share #13 Posted February 4, 2008 In film days lenses were more important because you could put any film into a decent body and get pretty much the same performance. In the digital era the body is far more important than it was previously because the sensor's innate IQ and sensitivity and resolution now come into play. That said, the old adage that "the camera makes the exposure and the lens makes the image" still holds water -- especially as digital bodies get better and better. The same lens on the M8 and on the R-D1 will yield different results due to differing crop factors and very different color renditions. The nice thing is that with the "perpetual upgrade" program for the M8, it is likely to hold its value reasonably well -- certainly better than disposable digicams. On the other hand, decent lenses in good condition generally bring a decent return. These days, I am going to say you need BOTH the best body and great lenses -- not expensive lenses, mind you, just great ones! Does that help at all? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhayat Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share #14 Posted February 4, 2008 The same lens on the M8 and on the R-D1 will yield different results due to differing crop factors and very different color renditions. The nice thing is that with the "perpetual upgrade" program for the M8, it is likely to hold its value reasonably well -- certainly better than disposable digicams. These days, I am going to say you need BOTH the best body and great lenses -- not expensive lenses, mind you, just great ones! Does that help at all? Yes, Joe, it does. I completely forgot about the recent announcement that Leica would produce M8 MkII instead of M9. That is indeed reassuring... at least for the next 2 years, maybe? Even then, given how I'm still so attached to the output from my Digilux 2 (who cares if it's just 5 megapixels, eh), I don't think -- or rather, hope not! -- technological advances will make the M8 obsolete for me. If I do decide on getting one, that is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipotto Posted February 4, 2008 Share #15 Posted February 4, 2008 Amri, Welcome. I've used an R-D1 for the last 6 months and 2000 shots. While it is a fine camera that I enjoy greatly, if I was in your position, I wouldn't think twice. I have no doubt that the M8 will give you markedly better results, and that you will be much more content with the M8 body now, and especially in two years. I purchased the R-D1 used with a few CVs from a friend, and I already had a 35 'cron, so it made sense. For you, I think you would be better off putting your money in the body. One of the things I love about the M system is the plethora of small, lightweight m and screw-mount lenses. CV has many affordable options, and there is 50 years of choices from Leica and others on the second hand market. i.e. Buy the M8 and you can always look to CV and the used market for a great selection relatively affordable lens options. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipotto Posted February 5, 2008 Share #16 Posted February 5, 2008 Amri, If you want more conclusive advise, I could move this thread to the M8 forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemalk Posted February 5, 2008 Share #17 Posted February 5, 2008 Buy the Epson and you'll always wish for the M8 Lenses are much cheaper to add later... I agree wholeheartedly with Andy. You'll hardly ever regret getting "the best" body available, especially if you have the funds available. If you get the "second best" and save some money, you'll always wonder "what if..." Buying equipment is an emotional decision. We find logical ways to justify. I guess it just comes down to, if money was no object, what would you get? And then go based on that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 5, 2008 Share #18 Posted February 5, 2008 I'll throw in my lot with the M8 proponents. The CV28 is a much better lens than the R-D1 is camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapp Posted February 5, 2008 Share #19 Posted February 5, 2008 It is not a body lens question. In the old days you could load any film in any camera, today the body holds a fixed sensor and in your case I would say the body is more important as the M8 has the much better sensor. The Nokton is not that much behind the Leica lens. If you asked about film, get the Leica lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokysun Posted February 5, 2008 Share #20 Posted February 5, 2008 i couldn't play in this game at all without r lenses on an xti and 20d! so i say, lenses, even in this day and age.(and a used 5d full frame down to 1500 dollars). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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