philipotto Posted February 5, 2008 Share #21 Â Posted February 5, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Osscat, Â I agree with you regarding the need for optical viewfinders, but see that it must be a real challenge both in packaging and in price. The Ricoh GV1, 28mm hot-shoe mounted external 28mm finder, for the GR-Digital retails for $200, or more than a third of the price of the camera. My Canon S230 had a built in optical, but it was a small and dull tunnel, not a finder that we would be happy with. Â For the time being a shoe mounted finder may be a good compromise. It's a nice option on the GR-D and DP-1, and something not offered by the D-LUX 3 due to its lack or shoe, though more than one forum member has solved this with the help of some superglue. Â Â One of the reasons I prefer using an optical finder is that I feel less conspicuous not showing my prospective shot to all who are around. Â Â Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 Hi philipotto, Take a look here Examples DP1. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
zapp Posted February 7, 2008 Share #22  Posted February 7, 2008 Osscat, I agree with you regarding the need for optical viewfinders, but see that it must be a real challenge both in packaging and in price. The Ricoh GV1, 28mm hot-shoe mounted external 28mm finder, for the GR-Digital retails for $200, or more than a third of the price of the camera. My Canon S230 had a built in optical, but it was a small and dull tunnel, not a finder that we would be happy with.  For the time being a shoe mounted finder may be a good compromise. It's a nice option on the GR-D and DP-1, and something not offered by the D-LUX 3 due to its lack or shoe, though more than one forum member has solved this with the help of some superglue.   One of the reasons I prefer using an optical finder is that I feel less conspicuous not showing my prospective shot to all who are around.   Philip I paid $350 for the complete and brand new GR digital :-)  I received a letter today from the Sigma distributor, pricing for the DP1 is around $1000 to be delivered in March/April, the viewfinder is less than $200. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dot Posted February 8, 2008 Share #23 Â Posted February 8, 2008 I paid $350 for the complete and brand new GR digital :-)Â I received a letter today from the Sigma distributor, pricing for the DP1 is around $1000 to be delivered in March/April, the viewfinder is less than $200. Â The DP1 is available for pre-order from Amazon for $799. Some got it for $750 when it first appeared on the website. Expected to ship in mid to late March. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted February 8, 2008 Share #24  Posted February 8, 2008 "Dp1 has an accessory VF" Thanks Riley - that is interesting - but I assume the VF is a clumsy device that sticks up making it awkward to pocket easily.  The beauty of the leica system is its small size making its use inconspicuous.  It must not be too difficult to make a viewfinder, for a fixed focal length lens, fit into these little cameras.  Anyway thats what I think - until the manufacturers accommodate my irrational viewfinder fetish, don't be too alarmed if you see a man wandering the streets with a cloth over his head trying to blend in naturally with his surroundings.  Osscat  Actually, you could use a Ricoh GR2 finder or a CV 28/35 mini-finder. Both are quite compact. I haven't seen the Sigma finder yet.  Cheers,  Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggie_O Posted February 8, 2008 Share #25 Â Posted February 8, 2008 I'm concerned by the 4MP size of the files. Sigma says the native file size is 2652 x 1768, which is more in the 4MP range than the advertised 14MP. How can they make that claim? Maybe I'm not understanding the technology in use here, but what's up with that? Are they magic fairy dust pixels or something? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted February 8, 2008 Share #26 Â Posted February 8, 2008 Are they magic fairy dust pixels or something? Â Yes. Â The Foveon sensor in the Sigma has (AIUI) 4.7 million pixels, but each of them is a triple-layered affair that captures R, G and B luminances (vs just one of the three for each pixel in a conventional sensor). Â Sigma's argument seems to be that this means they have 4.7m red pixels, 4.7m green and 4.7m blue making a total of about 14m, while a conventional 4.7MP sensor only has about 1.2m each red and blue pixels and 2.3m green - and that this extra resolution in the colour channels justifies them in up-rezzing their files from the "real" 4.7m to 14m or whatever. Â I can see that some of this is justified when we're talking colour - but not for B&W, where ISTM the DP1 is stuck with a "real" resolution of just 4 point some MP. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggie_O Posted February 8, 2008 Share #27 Â Posted February 8, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Ah, thanks for the explanation. Â Though it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in the DP1's ability to do high-res images and/or large prints. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 8, 2008 Share #28  Posted February 8, 2008 Sigma's argument seems to be that this means they have 4.7m red pixels, 4.7m green and 4.7m blue making a total of about 14m, while a conventional 4.7MP sensor only has about 1.2m each red and blue pixels and 2.3m green - and that this extra resolution in the colour channels justifies them in up-rezzing their files from the "real" 4.7m to 14m or whatever. It’s not just Sigma’s argument. There is a (Japanese) industry standard for counting pixels that Sigma and everyone else is using. For whatever reason, this pixel counting standard is actually counting photosites, and there is no denying that the Foveon X3 sensor has 3 x 4.6 million photosites.  What’s more important, though, is that resolution-wise, cameras with a Foveon X3 sensor generally compare nicely to conventional cameras with twice the number of pixel positions. The DP1 should deliver an image quality at least similar to that of an 8 or 10 MP model.  That doesn’t mean that one should let the camera interpolate a 14 MP image. In my experience, best results are obtained by choosing the 4 MP setting. If you really want interpolation, Photoshop would do a better job at this than the camera (judging from Sigma’s SD models).  I can see that some of this is justified when we're talking colour - but not for B&W, where ISTM the DP1 is stuck with a "real" resolution of just 4 point some MP. Even when a color image from a Bayer sensor is reduced to B&W eventually, there will still be a demosaicing step that might introduce luminance as well as chroma artifacts. B&W images from a Foveon X3 sensor will thus be slightly better than 4 MP images from a conventional sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 8, 2008 Share #29  Posted February 8, 2008 .......it could be the closest one can get going down a autochrome style path digitally  Oh how I wish I could get that look digitally. Some from Kahn's team...  Telegraph | Picture Gallery | EDWARDIANS IN COLOUR  There's a book of Kahn autochromes being published later in the year. My copy is on order at Amazon <grin>. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted February 8, 2008 Share #30 Â Posted February 8, 2008 Just looking at it from a marketing angle, I suspect this camera will be dead on arrival. It will interest techies more than consumers. Â JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted February 8, 2008 Share #31 Â Posted February 8, 2008 Even when a color image from a Bayer sensor is reduced to B&W eventually, there will still be a demosaicing step that might introduce luminance as well as chroma artifacts. B&W images from a Foveon X3 sensor will thus be slightly better than 4 MP images from a conventional sensor. Â Makes sense. Thanks for pointing it out! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted February 8, 2008 Share #32 Â Posted February 8, 2008 Just looking at it from a marketing angle, I suspect this camera will be dead on arrival. It will interest techies more than consumers. Â Exactly my thought as well. Â The difference is ... photographers will support a product with their wallet and gearheads will only support with Internet forum posts. Â Foveon is a no sell in reality, who is buying the SD14? Â Sigma SD14 Digital SLR Camera + Bag+Battery Kit NEW USA - only 750 USD Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggie_O Posted February 8, 2008 Share #33  Posted February 8, 2008 Just looking at it from a marketing angle, I suspect this camera will be dead on arrival. It will interest techies more than consumers. JC  Boy, that sure is the case with my circle of acquaintances- the photographers are all kind of "meh" about it, but my imaging friends are going nuts over it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted February 9, 2008 Share #34 Â Posted February 9, 2008 and the punter in the street couldn't give a toss......... Â Â ........ Steve it would be a good one to figure out............. 18 months later sorta getting closer with a few presets ...the Dp1 on paper goes a step closer but I reckon I may have to do it via digital negs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neelin Posted February 9, 2008 Share #35 Â Posted February 9, 2008 Sigma SD14 Resolution: Can it Hang with the Big Dogs? Â here's a site with a Canon 5D & SD14 shots. charts AND real photos. Â nice comparision. Â r Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted February 9, 2008 Share #36 Â Posted February 9, 2008 I'm not sure if this guy knows what he was doing ... most of the difference he was seeing seems to be caused by the different algorithms, processing parameters when he chose to use different softwares in the comparison in a test condition which has zero control. Â Regarding resolution, I have some German lab test numbers here ... all at ISO 100 (or base ISO) Â Canon 5D 12MP: 1261 lp/ph Sigma SD14 "14MP": 1056 lp/ph Nikon D70s 6MP: 1072 lp/ph Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 9, 2008 Share #37 Â Posted February 9, 2008 I think what bothers me the most about the DP-1 is that in spite of all the commentary and criticism of the f/4 largest opening and the high ISO performance of the Foveon sensor (as well as using a 35mm lens instead of 28mm (equiv.): more mass-appeal), they are going ahead and doing it anyway, and the eventual result may be that a series of camera companies *learn the wrong lesson* from its probable failure, and we will not see another comparable camera for a long time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 9, 2008 Share #38  Posted February 9, 2008 Regarding resolution, I have some German lab test numbers here ... all at ISO 100 (or base ISO) Canon 5D 12MP: 1261 lp/ph Sigma SD14 "14MP": 1056 lp/ph Nikon D70s 6MP: 1072 lp/ph There are pitfalls to be avoided when comparing the resolution of Foveon X3 and Bayer sensors. As far as I can tell, all the resolution measuring methodologies are based on measuring black and white contrast. X3 sensors are actually slightly better at resolving black and white patterns (according to the figures you quoted, the 4.6 MP SD14 is on a par with the 6 MP D70s, but see below), but the X3’s real forte is its resolution in the colour channel, where conventional Bayer sensors fare much worse. This is never taken into account in resolution tests which is why lp/ph figures typically don’t square with visual results when comparing Foveon’s and Bayer sensors.  Having said that, it’s hard to keep a straight face in interpreting the above figures. So the SD14 is supposed to resolve 1056 line pairs per image hight, i.e. 2112 lines, when the height of non-interpolated images from the SD14 is just 1760 pixels? Now that would be quite some feat: resolving more than two lines with just two pixels! The figure for the D70s (resolving 2144 lines with 2000 pixels) is only marginally less ludicrous. And what’s wrong with the EOS 5D: just 1261 line pairs or 2522 lines from 2912 pixels? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanhulsenbeek Posted February 9, 2008 Share #39  Posted February 9, 2008 Oh how I wish I could get that look digitally. Some from Kahn's team... Telegraph | Picture Gallery | EDWARDIANS IN COLOUR  There's a book of Kahn autochromes being published later in the year. My copy is on order at Amazon <grin>.  Check (pun not intended) this: Sergei Mikhailovich Prokudin-Gorsky (Prokudin-Gorskii)  My favourite is this picture: http://sechtl-vosecek.ucw.cz/en/images/prokudin-gorsky/big/04446u.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted February 9, 2008 Share #40  Posted February 9, 2008 Captured in colour: Léon Gimpel (1878–1948)         The Heritage of the Great War / First World War 1914 - 1918 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/44365-examples-dp1/?do=findComment&comment=478133'>More sharing options...
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