Leica D2 and Nikon SB-28

[chouhsin]

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I know this has been discussed a lot in the old forum, but I just can't find them since there's no more search function in it. Sorry about this.

 

Can anyone give me his impression on this combination? Does SB-28 work well on D2? Is it fully competible? TTL and all? Or only certain fuctions work?

 

I am trying to get a énd handed SB-28 and your suggestion are more then welcomed.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Hsin

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[marknorton]

I think you'll find it will work in conventional auto flash mode only. No problem attaching it to the camera or using it on it, but it's a bit of a monster on the D2. I use an SF-24D but the Nikon will have the advantage of the tilting flash head and higher output power.

[leicapfile]

Hsin,

 

If the Nikon flash has a GNC (guide number control) setting, it should work fine on the D2. Otherwise as Mark indicates, you'll have to use conventional autoflash settings.

 

Actually, there is no TTL capability on any digital camera. Apparantly, the reflections off of the digital sensor are not accurate for flash as opposed to readings off the film surface using TTL.

 

Best,

 

Jerry

[Peyton Hoge]

Jerry,

 

TTL does work on digital cameras. The SB-28 Hsin is inquiring about does have TTL capabilities with Nikon digital SLR's. Also Canon and Canon flashes use TTL.

 

Peyton

[cbretteville]

Hsin,

 

If the Nikon flash has a GNC (guide number control) setting, it should work fine on the D2. Otherwise as Mark indicates, you'll have to use conventional autoflash settings.

 

I seriously doubt the Nikon's GNC circutry can communicate with the D2, the pinout mght be the same (I use a SC-17 cable between my Metz and D2), but that is where it stops. Actually you need ot be sure that the connections on the flash apart from the trad. X connector doesn't damage the D2. If you can't get that verified, put a Wein safe sync gizmo between the D2 and the Nikon, that way you'll not fry the circutry of the D2.

[chouhsin]

I tried my SB-23 on the D2 last night. In TTL mode, the flash did fire off, with only about 10% of it's full power in manuel mode, but it's definetly not controlled by the explosure information. The best distance under this non controlled TTL mode is about 1.5 to 2.5 meters. Would be over exposed or under exposed if I move closer or farer to the subject.

 

The speed light works also fine in the manuel mode. The only thing is that I had to calculate using guide number and I am rather slow with numbers.

 

So is it worth of 150euro to buy a 2nd hand SB-28? if it's going to be no better then my SB-23.

 

 

Hsin

[leicapfile]

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Peyton,

 

If you are referring to a TTL flash capability analagus to that of a film camera ((where a sensor mounted inside the camera reads the amount of light reflected off the film (OTF) to determine correct flash duration)), that does not happen with any digital camera/flash combination. The digital sensor does not reflect the incoming light to be read.

 

Now it may be a question of terminology definition, in that by whatever device, the light of the flash is, in fact, captured and read as it passes through the lens (thereby adjusting the flash pulse for proper exposure).

 

However it doesn't do so utilizing the actual digital sensor that captures the end image as TTL does with film. As confirmed by me in a series of e-mails with Leica and Metz in discussions surrounding my M7 and D2, using both a 54 MZ3 with M4 hot shoe adaptor and Leica SF24D, TTL is the proper setting on the Metz with the M7. TTL/GNC is the proper setting for the M7 with the SF24D. In this case the 24D senses it is mounted on the M7 and utilizes the cameras TTL capability.

 

Regarding the D2, one sets the Metz at A (automatic) reading through the external sensor mounted on the flash. With the SF24D, one sets it on TTL/GNC, wherein it communicates with the body, both using their GNC (Guide Number Control) circuitry.

 

I'd appreciate any camera/flash web site where true TTL is touted as a capability where the flash reads reflections off the digital sensor to calulate pulse/exposure time as happens with film. To date I, Leica and Metz are unaware of any.

 

Thanks,

 

Jerry

[hongtoh]

Jerry wrote:

 

<<I'd appreciate any camera/flash web site where true TTL is touted as a capability where the flash reads reflections off the digital sensor to calulate pulse/exposure time as happens with film. To date I, Leica and Metz are unaware of any.>>

 

No single website that explains it all but gathered this from various forums and sites:

 

You are correct that digital sensors do not reflect light to the TTL sensor. The digital TTL systems use a very short (low power) preflash so that the TTL sensor would measure the light reflected off the shutter (often white) before it opened. This preflash coincides with some redeye reduction schemes where multiple short bursts are fired from the flash so that the subject's eye pupils will close and reduce the red eye effect. The exposure off the first shutter is momentarily stored in memory to control the flash during actual sensor exposure. The preflash occurs in the order of 1/10,000 sec prior to final flash so it is imperceptable to your eyes.

 

Due to the low intensity of this preflash it was not always reliable for subjects further away. Nikon in their "D" designated lenses sent distance information based on the lens focus position as well as aperture information to the flash which computed the correct flash output. Then during the preflash measurement, this computed flash output is verified to be correct or otherwise and then readjusted before the final flash output for sensor exposure. Any flash compensation selected is also adjusted prior to the final flash output.

 

That would explain why you would use "TTL" for the M7 which has a focal plane shutter and "A" for the Digilux 2 which has in lens shutter and therefore no TTL sensor.

[leicapfile]

Hong Toh,

 

Just as a curiosity, I did some trials with my D2, mounting the SF24D. Did so when I checked closely the pop up camera flash and could see no sensor there.

 

Mounting the Metz 54 on the D2, and covering the flash mounted sensor, the pictures were dark, as if no flash mounted. Set on A, it was obvious that the D2 did not communicate properly with the 54.

 

Took some indoor shots with the SF24D mounted sensor covered. Came out perfect, leading me to conclude that the flash pulse was controlled internally within the D2, with the only possible source for entry of the light being through the lens.

 

Now, what happens inside and how, I know not. Obviously the light is reflected off/read by something and correct pulse time calculated. But as we both agree, not off the digital sensor.

 

Therefore, I'd conclude that in order to avoid confusion with what happens with true TTL flash exposure on a film camera, Leica/Metz use the terminology of GNC (Guide Number Control). If you parse GNC, you can see that is what is happening to control the timing/intensity of the flash anyway, under any scenario where the readings take place based on light coming through the lens.

 

Simply a matter of using terminology that is specific to what is happening and how it occurs.

 

Best,

 

Jerry

[hongtoh]

Jerry,

 

Not familiar with the Metz 54. Do you have the SCA 3502 M4 module? I have an older Metz 40MZ-1i which is equipped with the red low light focussing aid and a conventional auto sensor. I have used it successfully in "A" mode and bounced flash so I assume the flash unit's sensor is measuring the reflected light. Not able to experiment now as my D2 has been with Leica, NJ, since May. I feel they have run out of circuit boards and sensors to repair it.

 

The D2 may not use the sensor on the SF24D. I do not have that unit so have no experience with it. Since the D2's pop up flash does not have a sensor, I speculate that it uses the distance measured from the lens' focus position, aperture set, and the guide number of the built in flash to calculate the correct flash output. Likewise, the SF24D may send a signal to the D2 identifying its guide number so that the D2 can calculate the flash output. It is important to have the updated SCA module for your 54 MZ-4 to communicate all available information to the D2.

 

Before flash automation, exposure was determined by calulating the correct aperture for the flash guide number (GN). In those days, GN was fixed at maximum output. This formula was used. Aperture = GN/Distance. This can be manipulated to:

 

GN = Aperture X Distance

 

The required GN is calcualted and as long as it does not exceed the max GN of the flash, you will get correct exposure. So the D2 does the calculation and sets the GN (flash output duration) of the flash unit by cutting it off at the proper timing. In essence it uses the SF24D's TTL circuitry but the SF24D does not know that the signal it received is NOT from a TTL sensor. Very clever isn't it?

 

No sensors involved (other than AF sensor) and very accurate. Which is precisely what you mentioned as Guide Number Control (GNC). Works in manual focus (MF) too since distance information is taken off the correctly focussed lens position.

 

BTW, Leica does tell you that the D2 uses "A" and not "TTL" for non Leica flash units and I believe my 40MZ-1i operates with its own sensor.

 

Best regards,

 

Hong Toh

[leicapfile]

Hong Toh,

 

I have the 54 MZ-3, with the SCA 3502 foot, that has been upgraded (firmware I understand, and they did it for free, including return shipping) by Metz to the M4 spec from the original M3. Metz tells me that, for all intents and purposes, the 54 MZ-3 becomes a 54 MZ-4 for use on Leica products.

 

The SF24D has a 3 position setting. M, A, and TTL/GNC. When using the TTL/GNC, I'm sure the camera (be it a M7 or a D2), communicates with the flash to tell it which capabilities the flash has to use. Also I'm sure both cameras tell the 24D what ISO is being used (D2), or what film speed you have either loaded ((DX or manual setting (M7)).

 

As I side point, I don't use auto focus on the D2. Simply too slow for my taste. The Grand kids move too fast! It could be that the D2 communicates the focus ring distance to the 24D when using manual focus. If so, that would be pretty slick.

 

As you indicated, Leica (and Metz) do adise to use the A setting with with non-Leica flashs on the D2, such as the Metz 54, and it works well. As does the TTL setting on the 54 when mounted on the M7.

 

All the discussion prompts the question as to what Leica has in mind for the M8. Will the SF24D work? Does Metz have yet another SCA3502 firmware upgrade, or perhaps a Metz branded M8 flash. The fun of the upcoming announcement from Solms will doubtless be in the details.

 

BTW-Sorry to hear about your D2. What was the problem? Mine has performed flawlessly so far over 18 months, at over 3,000 exposures. My serial # is 3,313,something so perhaps they had 'rolling' upgrades during production. I'd be surprised to hear that there may be no replacements readily available for such a recent (and expensive) camera. Good luck.

 

Best,

 

Jerry

[hongtoh]

Jerry,

 

Not sure about flash for the M8. Did Leica come up with a solution for the Digital Back mounted to the R8/R9? Obviously when the Digital back is attached there has to be some way to relay to the flash that film is not in use and to change the TTL scheme for digital.

 

The same implementation should work for the M8 and R9/digital since both have focal plane shutters. M8 is digital only so there is no confusion. If the SF24D works for R9 with digital back it should work for M8 also. Metz can update the 54MZ-3 with a revised SCA adapter but I'm not sure if there is a way to update the SF24D.

 

One day I turned on the switch on my D2 and the EVF went bright white momentarily and then the lights went out. I've had it over 2 years and I'm glad Leica has a 3 year warranty. Don't know how many frames I've shot as I have reset the counter. Serial No is 298xxxx The Panasonic DMC-LC1 has a 2 year warranty. Sent it to Leica mid May. Got post card from them in July stating that they are waiting for circuit boards to be shipped from Germany. Called them 2 weeks ago and they said they are awaiting sensors to be shipped from Germany. The electronics come from Panasonic, Japan don't they? It's been 3+ months. Don't they have any spares? I am disappointed with their ability to repair the camera. Hoping they will replace it with a D3 if one ever comes along. The 2/3" 5MP sensor I believe is made by SONY and Leica/Panasonic were the last to use it. SONY has stopped production. SONY and some others used a 2/3" 8MP sensor and I believe that too was terminated in 2005.

 

Digital technology advances so rapidly and cameras become obsolete in 18 months. With the old film cameras you could fabricate parts as necessary. With electronics, if you don't stockpile the spares now, the processors and supporting chips, memory and CCDs are no longer available when production shifts to newer components. I believe Leica ordered 40,000 D2s from Panasonic and they have sold out. Don't know about the spares stockpile. Panasonic has terminated production of the DMC-LC1 also.

 

In the meantime I am using an Olympus E-300. It's not as accurate as the D2 in white balance and exposure but I can correct it in Photoshop. Autofocus is faster. Got the SCA 3202 M4 so my 40MZ-1i can function with it in "A" but not "TTL."

 

Let's see what Leica will announce at Photokina.

 

Best regards,

 

Hong

[leicapfile]

Hong,

 

Never ventured into Leica R bodies so can't comment there as to what the R 8/9 capabilities are when the DMR is mounted and using flash of any type/maker.

 

Concur with you that the SF24D probably can't be upgraded. Whereas for the Metz 54 series (and perhaps for the 40 series also), Metz probably has either a SCA adaptor or perhaps a perhaps a whole new flash in mind for the M8. Suspect they have worked closely with Leica on the M8 project in this regard.

 

I'm sure initial work on the M8 concept began some time ago. I'd bet that Leica has expended more man hours bringing from conception to birth than any one project in their history.

 

Their foray into digital has pretty much been in the collaboration with Panasonic for all their digital cameras to date. And that activity has been a 'learning curve' of sorts for them. While even though they had a rebadged Panasonic in the D-Lux camera after the D2, they must have used the D2 to see just how deep customer acceptance would be of a digital camera that 'kinda looked' and certainly operated, much like the M.

 

Will they take it further with a D3? Using the new 4/3 chips. I don't think so, at least for awhile. The M8 will keep them busy.

 

On your D2. Why don't you give Roger Horn at Leica NJ an e-mail. I have found him to be a very down to earth and responsive individual in 3 or 4 matters, all of which concluded most satisfactorily. Rare, even in small companies like Leica. And most appreciated.

 

Best,

 

Jerry

[hongtoh]

Jerry,

 

I will email Roger Horn if I don't get a satisfactory response on Monday. Thank you for the suggestion.

 

Leica and Metz have been working together on flash technology for a long time. It should be no surprise that Metz will come up with a new flash for the M8 if one is needed. I too am not familiar with the R8/R9. I have a Nikon F100 film camera and the shutter is either painted or coated grey with reflectance similar to film emulsion. It's utilized to reflect flash illumination to the TTL sensor during a pre-flash. Nikon must have anticipated the need for such a system for DSLRs that they implemented it in film SLRs to test the concept.

 

If Leica did the same in the R9 then the SF24D would work with the DMR attached and therefore work the same way with the M8. I'm sure Leica designers had given it some thought when they designed the R9 as they anticipated the DMR would materialize when the sensor technology produced images of acceptable quality.

 

I am hoping that a D3 will appear as an upgraded D2 rather than a 4/3 camera. The D2 has an excellent lens and it would be a shame to discontinue it. Panasonic can produce 2/3" sensors if nobody else will. There are 10MP 1/1.8" sensors which are only marginally smaller than the 2/3" sensors. Fuji has a 1/1.6" sensor that is closer in size.

 

I am waiting for official test reports on the Panasonic LX2. It may appear as a Leica D-Lux 3? Would prefer that Panasonic/Leica retain the 8MP sensor from the D-Lux 2 and use the Venus III procesor to reduce noise for a better image.

 

I hope Leica will improve on Panasonic's DMC-L1. I handled one in Osaka a month ago and didn't like the size and feel of that camera. It needs to be thinner and the shutter release is in an awkward position - needs to be closer to center of camera.

 

Another week and we'll see what's going to be announced.

 

Best regards,

 

Hong

[LUF Admin]

Dear all,

 

Leica just asked me to publish this statement:

 

Nikon flashes must never be used on Leica cameras.

By coincidence the contacts have the same position at the hot shoe. But they have different interfaces, (electrically and software-wise).

There is the danger of damaging both parts.

You should only use dedicated Leica flashes of flash guns with a simple hot shoe with only a centre contact.

[leicapfile]

Andreas,

 

Thanks for passing the word on to all.

 

Best,

 

Jerry

 

PS: I know that officially this is Leicas' site, in that they underwrite it, but it's good to know that they also monitor it and keep us from tripping ourselves up.