Early Leica lens serial numbers

[bruceb]

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I haven't been able to find a source that shows Leica lens serial numbers below 100,000 (like https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Serial_Number_Links_for_Leica_Cameras_and_Lenses). For instance I have an Elmar 90mm f/4 with S/N 96771 which I can't find any info on. Does such a resource exist?

[Jul]

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Elmar_(I)_f%3D_9_cm_1:4

says 1930 in a 368+ batch.

[Dr Monochrom]

Hi @bruceb, 

I'm not entirely sure what specific information you need, but I have conducted some research on 9cm lenses from that period, which you can read using the link below:

https://www.summichronica.com/screw-mount-lenses-90mm

The first 9cm f/4 Elmar lens to have a serial number was number 94092 from 1931, as per Helmut Lagler's "Phänomen Leica: Eine Analyse, LEICA Literatur-Handbuch 1924-2020" book. 

Also, I would be happy to consult the literature available to me if you have a specific question in mind. 

I hope this helps.

 

Edited Wednesday at 01:25 AM by Dr Monochrom

[willeica]

9 hours ago, Jul said:

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Elmar_(I)_f%3D_9_cm_1:4

says 1930 in a 368+ batch.

According to Hartmut Thiele , 96771 is a 9cm f4 Elmar from a batch of 532 from 1931/32 . Thiele's lists commence at 92201. The information from that period is very sketchy and difficult to assess. Try info@leica-camera.com , but I suspect you will not get any more information. Is there a particular detail you are looking for?

William

[jerzy]

Thiele (Grosses Fabrikationsbuch Leica Objektive) has a list starting with 92201. I found however Elmars 5cm with  nuubers is the range 71xxx. I believe Leica srated to assign own number to the lenses after introducing  IC non standard, with IA lens was fully associated to the the camera. The lowest number that I found was 71973, lens was on IA. These early numbers were however not on the front ring, not visible from outside, you have to take optics out of the mount to see it. There was a period of time when IC and IA were produced in paraller and this is an explanation for the Elmars on late IA having as well own serial number.
In 1945/46 some 5 digits lenses were delivered to US Army, previously unused number have been taken.

Edited Wednesday at 09:32 AM by jerzy

[willeica]

24 minutes ago, jerzy said:

Thiele (Grosses Fabrikationsbuch Leica Objektive) has a list starting with 92201. I found however Elmars 5cm with  nuubers is the range 71xxx. I believe Leica srated to assign own number to the lenses after introducing  IC non standard, with IA lens was fully associated to the the camera. The lowest number that I found was 71973, lens was on IA. These early numbers were however not on the front ring, not visible from outside, you have to take optics out of the mount to see it. There was a period of time when IC and IA were produced in paraller and this is an explanation for the Elmars on late IA having as well own serial number.
In 1945/46 some 5 digits lenses were delivered to US Army, previously unused number have been taken.

Thanks, Jerzy, I have seen some of those early numbers. The reason for this is that up to a certain point the lens was not interchangeable and effectively it had the same number as the camera. Once lenses became interchangeable they initially started to have either full camera number or the last 3 digits of the camera serial number engraved on the side as they still had to be matched with the camera. Earlier conversions in Britain from 1929 onwards, using Dallmeyer lenses, had the full camera serial number and the lens serial number engraved beside one another on the lens barrel. Once the standardised interchangeable lenses with a 0 engraved on the side for fitting on standardised cameras with a 0 on the lens mount were introduced around 1931, then lenses began to have a life of their own with their own serial numbers. Thiele's list begins at around that time. I am trying here to explain the 'why' as regards serial numbers in that period. It is partly a question of records, but it is more significantly a change in the nature of the products being manufactured in Wetzlar.

For what it is worth, I own the fifth ever Leica made in Wetzlar with an interchangeable lens. It was delivered on 16th April 1930 with the serial number 37284 and the number 284 is engraved on the side of the lens, which carries no other serial number. I also own 14225 a I Model A from 1929 which was modified by Sinclair in London to take a Dallmeyer 4 inch lens with an interchangeable mount. That has both serial numbers camera 14225 and lens 145778 on the side of the lens, camera and lens both have 33mm mounts, not the later 39mm. The Sinclair conversions commenced before Leitz started its practice of engraving camera serial numbers on the barrels of matched lenses. All of these changes occurred over a very short period of time. 

William 

[bruceb]

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Thanks for the replies -- mostly I'd like to know if the helical the lens is attached to is nickel or chrome -- it looks like nickel to me (warmish) but I don't know of a way to confirm that. It's a "thin" helical which might make it younger??? I suppose it's also possible it isn't the original helical.

Also I have a "no-serial number" 5cm Elmar which came from a 1931 Model C -- is there a simple way to find the internal serial number or does that involve disassembling the lens? Something I'm not really eager to do, I really like the rendering.

[bruceb]

Looking at Dr Monochrom's link above it looks like a Variant 6 with depth-of-field scale and black/nickel finish. I think that answers my question, thanks!

[bruceb]

Well, maybe not. No infrared offset marking, so maybe variant 4 or 5??? But the dates don't really match up. Interesting...

[willeica]

14 hours ago, bruceb said:

Well, maybe not. No infrared offset marking, so maybe variant 4 or 5??? But the dates don't really match up. Interesting...

If you could post some photos of what you are talking about it might help. IR markings appeared from about 1933 onwards at different dates on different lens models. The helicoids are generally made from brass. As for your variant numbers, can you indicate a source for those? 
 

William 

[sandro]

IR markings on Leitz lenses made sense only from 1933 onward, since in that year the first 35mm infraredfilms were marketed. Gradually Leitz provided lenses with focal distances of 50mm and longer with an IR marking.

Lex

[bruceb]

Per the variant numbers, they're from Dr Monochrom's very interesting website (thanks for the link!): https://www.summichronica.com/screw-mount-lenses-90mm

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[bruceb]

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[bruceb]

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[willeica]

5 hours ago, bruceb said:

Detail:

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Seyran (Dr Monochrom) has taken this information from Paul Henry van Hasbroeck's book which was first published in 1983. I have seen these numbered series done by van Hasbroeck before. In the case of the 50mm Elmar he showed 25 variants, but Jerzy and I found more. Paul Henry is very knowledgeable, but his book was written a long time ago. The first question I would ask is whether your 'Fat Elmar' is coupled? 

William 

[Dr Monochrom]

This reminded me to catch up on all of the pending items in my backlog...  

[bruceb]

Yes, it’s a coupled lens. Fun to shoot with my Model D.

[bruceb]

Also, why do you think it’s a fat Elmar? Seems like a thin one to me.