How about a line of M Autofocus Lenses for the EV line of M cameras?

[Segal]

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9 minutes ago, Pieter12 said:

The OP and subject line is wanting an autofocus M camera.

Right, but this is impossible as @LocalHero1953 pointed out. It would have to be a new mount. Something close to M. N, maybe? Or, hear me out, L? L sounds good.

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[adan]

14 minutes ago, Segal said:

It would have to be a new mount. Something close to M. N, maybe?

Bad joss there.

Kyocera/Contax tried an "N" SLR line, first as autofocus on 35mm film, and then with an AF digital version (full 24x36 sensor, 6 Mpixels, reached the market in 2002).

https://cameralegend.com/2020/11/09/the-contax-n-digital-revisited-2020/

The entire Contax line was flushed away 3 years later, when Kyocera exited the camera market completely.

Buh-buh-buh-Bye-Bye! 👋 👋

[IkarusJohn]

5 hours ago, Kwesi said:

Good question, well one could ask the same of the current model but that's not the point of this thread. I guess my question is wether one thinks the move toward small M mount AF lenses is a natural progression for a future M with a built in EVF

I really don’t think this will happen.

Leica tried smaller AF interchangeable lens cameras with the TL & CL, albeit APS-C, but with the advantage of smaller AF lenses and that didn’t go so well.  They then made the SL, on the basis that they would make no compromises for size over quality.  Now, I’m sure Leica could make a compact AF line of lenses, but at the cost of quality and putting them squarely in competition with Sony at prices they couldn’t match.

So, my suggestion, either enjoy the M for what it is and watch the development of the EV2 along with all the other experts, buy yourself the latest SL, or get a Sony.

[IkarusJohn]

4 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

 

See my post mentioning the Fujifilm XPro. M-shaped, M-sized, M-styled with a line of excellent, interchangeable autofocus lenses, all at a fraction of Leica prices. Plus it has a hybrid optical/electronic viewfinder, something Leica has never done.

 

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I’d get one, if I were you!

[zlatkob]

I'm not a fan of the X-Pro series. The X-Pro lacks the rounded M shape and style. Focusing with the optical viewfinder involves too much guesswork as the autofocus box jumps to a different position after focusing.

[rramesh]

If Leica partnered with Nikon to. 

 1) introduce a new camera that was shaped like a Leica variant of the Zf. 
2) modified the housing to add black paint brass.
3) added the electronics and innovation of the Z6III. 
4) Enhanced the sensor for M lenses 
5) added a feature to convert 6 bit coding to electronic input via a Leica flange adapter like TT Artisan. 
4) replaced the Nikon logo with a Leica one. 
5) Sold it for 13k. 

Customers, Leica and Nikon would be very happy. 

[jaapv]

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All five customers? 

[Tailwagger]

11 hours ago, Kwesi said:

I guess my question is wether one thinks the move toward small M mount AF lenses is a natural progression for a future M with a built in EVF

Emphatically, no.  The case for the existence of any M mount camera, EV-1 or otherwise, has little to do with future lens designs, but rather with supporting the 70+ years of existing glass, none of which has any electrical connection, nor auto-aperture capability.  The M mount and lenses that interface to it are by design and definition, manual focus.  No amount of hackery, techart or otherwise, changes this fact.  Introducing any credible AF system means an entirely new mount. An entirely new mount, means an entirely new camera system, lenses included. 

There are reasons why all the new mounts introduced in the last decade by multiple manufacturers are huge by comparison.  Digital sensors, unlike film, require a piece of protective glass between the ass end of the lens and the sensor sites. And that changes everything, because that simple piece of glass introduces distortion via refraction when the light hitting it comes in at an angle.  One of the reasons the M was so compact in the first place was that the lenses could get closer to the film plane by bending the light into the correct location.  But this very strength became the M's achilles heal at the dawn of the digital age. Leica ultimately countered these refraction effects for M lenses by introducing micro-lensing and ultra thin cover glass.  But elsewhere, with the introduction of mirrorless cameras, designers were free to create new mounts specifically for the digital reality.  Designs which permitted new lenses to project the image onto the sensor as close to perpendicular as possible. That new context meant that the diameter of mounts had to increase and so in turn did the size of everything else surround them.

Would it be possible to adopt some of the current techniques used to make M lenses digitally viable and apply them in the context of an AF capable camera so as to shrink the foot print down to more manageable level? Perhaps from an engineering perspective, but given the economic state of photography these days, I doubt any have the will let alone the resources necessary to introduce yet another new mount and optical family into the current rather depressed marketplace. 

For the foreseeable future, if you want an AF capable camera the size and mass even approaching that of an M, something I suspect many would appreciate, the only reasonable solution lies with an ASPC or M4/3 system.  It's highly unlikely we'll see anything new in the FF space, unless Sony, whose current system is admittedly now quite mature, decides there is a significant untapped market opportunity to exploit there.

Edited yesterday at 11:35 AM by Tailwagger

[250swb]

Put a Leica logo on a Panasonic, oh, they do already.

[jaapv]

The trend nowadays is to make AF lenses lighter by using new materials, thinner (lighter) glass elements and improving image quality beyond previous, smaller , designs thanks to more space leeway. Leica and some smaller suppliers are a bit behind in the materials department but are pursuing this trend as well; in the L alliance Sigma and Panasonic are in the forefront creating lenses that are better than anything before. Leica is not for nothing using their optical designs. The M lens system has reached a peak within the mount and size constraints, but will not be able to break out of its legacy niche. 
So, no AF M lenses. People will go for light SL designs. 

[AZach]

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

So, no AF M lenses.

Exactly, ”autofocus M-lens” is a oxymoron.

[Steve Ash]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb Segal:

They should make an M-mount camera with Techart Pro built-in - you'll get an autofocus Leica M that supports almost all old lenses. Best thing - it's going to be cumbersome and slow, so not to take away from the classic experience  

If anyone at Leica would seriously believe that to be a brilliant idea he should be fired asap.

[BernardC]

4 hours ago, rramesh said:

If Leica partnered with Nikon to. 

 1) introduce a new camera that was shaped like a Leica variant of the Zf. 
2) modified the housing to add black paint brass.
3) added the electronics and innovation of the Z6III. 
4) Enhanced the sensor for M lenses 
5) added a feature to convert 6 bit coding to electronic input via a Leica flange adapter like TT Artisan. 
4) replaced the Nikon logo with a Leica one. 
5) Sold it for 13k. 

Customers, Leica and Nikon would be very happy. 

That's a crippled SL3 at twice the price!

[NigelG]

I’d prefer a re-engineered simple version of the MATE without the complicated mechanical frameline selector and the 28-50-35 “dance”.

A true zoom like the WATE would be possible…but obviously would require the EVF (or OVF M + Visoflex.).

Given that the current close-focus M lenses are beyond the capability of the mechanical rangefinder I can’t see that this would be some sort of “heresy” 🤔

 

[zlatkob]

4 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

Emphatically, no.  The case for the existence of any M mount camera, EV-1 or otherwise, has little to do with future lens designs, but rather with supporting the 70+ years of existing glass, none of which has any electrical connection, nor auto-aperture capability.  The M mount and lenses that interface to it are by design and definition, manual focus.  No amount of hackery, techart or otherwise, changes this fact.  Introducing any credible AF system means an entirely new mount. An entirely new mount, means an entirely new camera system, lenses included. 

There are reasons why all the new mounts introduced in the last decade by multiple manufacturers are huge by comparison.  Digital sensors, unlike film, require a piece of protective glass between the ass end of the lens and the sensor sites. And that changes everything, because that simple piece of glass introduces distortion via refraction when the light hitting it comes in at an angle.  One of the reasons the M was so compact in the first place was that the lenses could get closer to the film plane by bending the light into the correct location.  But this very strength became the M's achilles heal at the dawn of the digital age. Leica ultimately countered these refraction effects for M lenses by introducing micro-lensing and ultra thin cover glass.  But elsewhere, with the introduction of mirrorless cameras, designers were free to create new mounts specifically for the digital reality.  Designs which permitted new lenses to project the image onto the sensor as close to perpendicular as possible. That new context meant that the diameter of mounts had to increase and so in turn did the size of everything else surround them.

Would it be possible to adopt some of the current techniques used to make M lenses digitally viable and apply them in the context of an AF capable camera so as to shrink the foot print down to more manageable level? Perhaps from an engineering perspective, but given the economic state of photography these days, I doubt any have the will let alone the resources necessary to introduce yet another new mount and optical family into the current rather depressed marketplace. 

For the foreseeable future, if you want an AF capable camera the size and mass even approaching that of an M, something I suspect many would appreciate, the only reasonable solution lies with an ASPC or M4/3 system.  It's highly unlikely we'll see anything new in the FF space, unless Sony, whose current system is admittedly now quite mature, decides there is a significant untapped market opportunity to exploit there.

You realize that a new autofocus camera can co-exist with the M mount camera, which would continue to support the 70+ years of existing glass. One does not replace the other. Just as the SL, S, Q, TL did not replace the M.

I've heard this excuse about resources many times before: Leica is a small company and can't make [insert new thing]. And yet, from time to time, Leica does exactly that: new mount, new camera, new system, etc. Remember when the SL, S, Q, TL did not exist? All of those were seemingly not do-able or not foreseeable until Leica went and made them. And none of them replaced the M. So, likewise, Leica can introduce a new autofocus camera (M-shaped, M-sized, M-styled, but of course not called an "M") with a few new interchangeable autofocus lenses. It would not be a hill they could not climb.

Even so, I believe you're right about the foreseeable future. A few more decades will likely pass before such a camera is made. That means many of us will not be around to see it.

Edited yesterday at 03:42 PM by zlatkob

[JNK100]

17 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

Whole lot of reengineering would be required. Might as well buy a Fuji X-Pro. Excellent camera and lenses.

It is not made any more ....

[pgk]

18 hours ago, Kwesi said:

small light autofocus lenses with manual capability.

Its the 'small' bit that is the problem. If any maker could make smaller AF lenses then it would have been done already. The M is totally unsuited to such a move anyway because the M mount lens throat is too constricted. Basically AF lenses using an M mount may not be impossible but it has so many disadvantages that its extremely unlikely that it will ever happen.

[JNK100]

4 hours ago, 250swb said:

Put a Leica logo on a Panasonic, oh, they do already.

 

4 hours ago, 250swb said:

Put a Leica logo on a Panasonic, oh, they do already.

I've not hears that before - that's useful, thanks.

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[JNK100]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

All five customers? 

3 actually

[JNK100]

8 hours ago, rramesh said:

If Leica partnered with Nikon to. 

 1) introduce a new camera that was shaped like a Leica variant of the Zf. 
2) modified the housing to add black paint brass.
3) added the electronics and innovation of the Z6III. 
4) Enhanced the sensor for M lenses 
5) added a feature to convert 6 bit coding to electronic input via a Leica flange adapter like TT Artisan. 
4) replaced the Nikon logo with a Leica one. 
5) Sold it for 13k. 

Customers, Leica and Nikon would be very happy.

Very funny!