Will the SL ever become a full system?

[SJCoates]

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As someone who came into Leica in 1999 with the R system, I am wondering if the SL system will ever get to the size and scope of the R system?

What I mean is, the key selling points to me for the R system was the sheer range of lenses - from 15mm to 800mm and various special lenses such as macro, PC shift, specialist items such as bellows etc., and the fact that in the vast majority of cases, the lenses being designed and made in-house by Leica. My lens setup comprises of six R lenses, ranging from 19 to 400, all designed and built by Leica, all of them at the time of being offered for sale when new being the very best lens available at the time. The key point I am making is that I saw this system as a top class camera system with the very best lenses in the world.

When I look at the current SL system, there are only a small number of genuine SL lenses created along the same lines, with a vast number made by Sigma (and also some lenses being based on designs from Panasonic I believe?). Now of course people might well argue that Leica have some sort of input into lenses like the 14-24 but for me I don't really buy that; having seen numerous tests it is quite clear they are pretty much the same as the Sigma equivalent. Even if they do provide special coatings etc that really isn't enough to turn, for example, the 100-400 from an excellent Sigma lens into a fantastic Leica lens; I just don't buy that and smacks of milking the Leica brand. They are clearly Sigma lenses with higher quality materials around the physical body of the lens. Obviously, Sigma lenses are very good, but that sort of misses the point. My R lenses were designed to be the very best at the time; much like the way Leica develop the apo SL lenses today - it is just that there are only a fraction of what you would consider to be a full system. No macro, no big telephoto, no PC shift, etc etc. Ultimately having a Leica lens range using only Leica lenses made with what I consider to be the 'Leica way' ie no compromise, etc, then the range comprises of a small number of primes from 21 to 90mm and a zoom going up to 280mm. This is not a complete system, and for me leaves significant holes in lenses that I use. I would add of course that there were a number of R lenses made by other manufacturers such as the 15mm (Zeiss), 16mm fisheye (Minolta) and I believe a few zooms from Sigma. But there weren't many; the vast majority of lenses were designed and made by Leica.

It seems to me a bit sad and disappointing that you can only point at the relatively small number of SL apo lenses as being conceived along the same lines as the lenses in the R system, which suggests that the true Leica camera system no longer exists.

If I were to buy a brand new system today, if it were Leica-based, it would have to be a mix of Leica and Sigma lenses, which for me wouldn't really sit well. I would most likely go for a Nikon system. This for me is very disappointing, and maybe an admission that Leica have realised that the genuine system is something that only Nikon or Canon offer?

Obviously I must state that I do understand that Leica abandoned the R system for their reasons; and I do understand that the R system wasn't a financial success so maybe I've answered my original question as to whether Leica will ever develop the SL system to be something like the R, or at the very least something that might closely resemble a complete system along the lines that Nikon or Canon offer?

In the mean time I'll continue to enjoy my fantastic R lenses on the SL, a combination that works so well, I like to think that the SL is what Leica might have ended up with if they had developed the R10!

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[LocalHero1953]

Please keep enjoying your R lenses.

Meanwhile, from a perspective of taking photographs, I'll keep enjoying the L-mount system I have, which is complete as far as I'm concerned viz. it does all that I want it to do. And it includes Leica, Sigma and Blackmagic. I've never tried anything from Panasonic in L-mount, but I keep a S5iix in my mental back pocket in case my SL2-S fails and I need to get a replacement inside the hour (Wex stocks them a 20 minute walk away). It's a great time to be a photographer in L-mount. (Unless everything you buy has to have a red dot on it.)

NB You can use an R-mount lens on an L-mount camera (as I have done).

Edited 13 hours ago by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

I think that the L mount alliance covers far more than the R system ever did. A good range of bodies, both photographic and video, a wide range of excellent lenses of all price levels, accessories like handgrips, you name it. Plus the ability to take lenses from other brands, Leica M and R, etc. 

[jaapv]

Besides quite a few R lenses were by Sigma, Minolta, and others. The cameras were mainly Minolta, even R8 and R9 still had the DNA. 

[LD_50]

No, as you define full system, it won’t. If Leica invested that heavily they’d be competing in a market that is too price sensitive and they would fail. 

[Stuart Richardson]

No, Leica was a very different company than when the R system was made. The R system got killed by doing what you want it to do. Spending tons of R&D and manufacturing capacity on lenses that very few will buy is not profitable. Leica is a luxury company now, owned in large part by Blackstone and Kaufman. I am sure they want Leica to make great gear, but they are in it for money. The money is mostly in the M and Q systems. For the SL the focus is on the bodies and selling the most commonly used lenses. Then they can outsource the rest and make a big profit while still filling out the lens line. We can be thankful that at least Sigma and Panasonic make very good lenses, and that we can still get things like the APO Summicrons. But yes, I certainly preferred the days when you could get a Leica bellows system, extenders, a full stable of lenses, elpros, and all sorts of niche items. I do not think we will ever see that again. Corporate optimization has become too efficient. 

[jaapv]

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For instance: all Leica R zooms but for the very last were not Leica. In the end they picked up the skill and produced the 80-200 and 105-280 and it culminated in the 90-280

[beewee]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

For instance: all Leica R zooms but for the very last were not Leica. In the end they picked up the skill and produced the 80-200 and 105-280 and it culminated in the 90-280

Panasonic owns the patent for the 90-280. Minolta owns the patent for the SL 16-35. It’s not clear if Leica owns the 24-90 design but the optical formula has Sigma’s fingerprints all over it.

[jaapv]

Basically that means that Sony owns the patents. But it is nothing new. Designers involved in Leica R lenses: Sigma, Tamron, Kyocera, Minolta, Schneider-Kreuznach, Agenieux. It is an illusion that a small company like Leica were or are able to maintain a complete photographic universe. Their strength is to be able to design top quality gear and to build on that expertise by co-opting designs that match their standards to complete a full range. That has been the case since the late half of the last century.  
This has always been out in the open and culminated by Leica’ initiative in the L Mount Alliance. 

[stbeyer]

I have no problem with Sigma and Panasonic lens designs in the SL line-up.

First of all, I don't believe modern Sigma and Panasonic lenses are optically worse than Leica.

Secondly, there is a notable difference in build and feel. The Leica versions feel much better, and the user experience is very consistent with the rest of the line-up. I have the 28-70 and decided on the Leica version after trying out the Sigma version first. It's just nicer.

So, once you accept these third-party designs as proper Leica lenses, you have all the focal lengths covered in Zooms. Nice to have would be a few faster primes and an ultra-wide prime. 

What I would really like to see in the SL system is a compact body and 2 or 3 compact lenses. 

 

[jaapv]

Plenty of fast primes with Sigma and Leica cloned their Summicron SL lenses from Panasonic. Have a look in the L lens section. Leica- worthy lenses all Asfor user experience, for the Summicrons I have preference for Leica’s approach, with the 70-200 for instance the clear winner is Sigma to me.  

[Chris W]

A lot of photographers would say a zoom lens is a compromise compared to a prime. I have Sigma L mount primes and they are excellent in both image and build quality.

It seems that most professional photographers, especially the icons, primarily use a couple of lenses, in which case Leica has you covered with prime lenses at all the most popular focal lengths. 

So, more isn't necessarily better.