different appearance Elmar 35mm f3.5

[Lesoa]

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Hello! 

 

I recently acquired a nickel Elmar 35mm f/3.5 and I have a question about it. It seems to be an early version, probably before standardization, and appears to be made for leica Ⅰc, but the barrel design is different. 

At first I thought it might be missing a part of the barrel, but on close inspection there are no signs of disassembly, and it seems to be entirely composed of original parts. Also, looking at past information, I’ve seen serial numbers even earlier than this one (mine is three digits: 457), but those examples don’t seem to show any difference from the usual 35mm f/3.5. 

 

If anyone has information about this particular version, I would greatly appreciate your insights. Thank you!

 

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[SpotmaticSP]

You have one of the earliest non-standardized 35mm Elmars. The "457" is not its serial number, but the last three digits of the non-standardized Leica camera it was adjusted to.
There's more information to be found in this topic: 

 

[luigi bertolotti]

The most noticeable feature is focus to ,5 mtr, a documented variant of the non standard version (in meter only, afaik)

Edited Tuesday at 08:04 PM by luigi bertolotti

[Lesoa]

10時間前、SpotmaticSPは言った：

最も初期の非標準化された35mmエルマーの1つがあります。「457」はシリアル番号ではなく、調整された非標準化されたライカカメラの下3桁です。
このトピックには、さらに詳しい情報があります。

 

Thank you very much for your response!

 

I see, this lens was made for the Ⅰc with the serial number xx457.

I also found a specimen with the same characteristics (Nr.37380?) in the thread you pointed me to. It is quite interesting that both five-digit and three-digit numbers are mixed.

[Lesoa]

7 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

The most noticeable feature is focus to ,5 mtr, a documented variant of the non standard version (in meter only, afaik)

Thank you for your reply!

Since there is no “O” mark at the pin, I believe, as you mentioned, that it is indeed the non-standard version.

[Giuliobigazzi]

This lens most likely was on camera 37457. The first few months of the non standard cameras are confusing, not sequential when it comes to serials. I have 37323 delivered in July 1930.

37380, 37309, 37396 were delivered April May and June and have 5 numbers engraved on the lenses. 
37354 has 3 numbers. 
I bet because of the three numbers, 37457 was delivered July or later, but used an older part of a different design. That, or there were different workers engraving three or five numbers at the same time..

Then there is five number Elmar 39910 which confuses matters more!

i would ask Leica for delivery of 37457 

great find👍

Edited yesterday at 06:32 AM by Giuliobigazzi

[luigi bertolotti]

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4 hours ago, Lesoa said:

Thank you for your reply!

Since there is no “O” mark at the pin, I believe, as you mentioned, that it is indeed the non-standard version.

Yes, surelyy non standard, and the "odd" mount is due to the longer focus helicoid : a very interesting item.

[Giuliobigazzi]

Interesting, this makes sense. So this style mount is not necessarily earlier than the standard one as I was thinking. Just a different variant. 37380 thus must have been a close focus lens too. 

[willeica]

6 hours ago, Giuliobigazzi said:

This lens most likely was on camera 37457. The first few months of the non standard cameras are confusing, not sequential when it comes to serials. I have 37323 delivered in July 1930.

37380, 37309, 37396 were delivered April May and June and have 5 numbers engraved on the lenses. 
37354 has 3 numbers. 
I bet because of the three numbers, 37457 was delivered July or later, but used an older part of a different design. That, or there were different workers engraving three or five numbers at the same time..

Then there is five number Elmar 39910 which confuses matters more!

i would ask Leica for delivery of 37457 

great find👍

I have 37284, the 5th ever Leica with an interchangeable lens done in Wetzlar- there were earlier ones done in the UK, course. My camera has the last 3 digits on the lens. It was shipped on 16th April 1930 and then 'repaired' in Wetzlar 20th September 1930.

I only have a 50mm lens with 284 on it. There may be a 35mm and 135mm lenses 'on the loose' somewhere.

William 

[Giuliobigazzi]

Nice! So maybe the five digit lenses are an anomaly rather than early, maybe an engraver  didn’t get the brief and engraved full serials instead of the last three digits? Or I guess your lens could have been changed to a three digit during the ‘repair’

[willeica]

16 minutes ago, Giuliobigazzi said:

Nice! So maybe the five digit lenses are an anomaly rather than early, maybe an engraver  didn’t get the brief and engraved full serials instead of the last three digits? Or I guess your lens could have been changed to a three digit during the ‘repair’

Possibly the latter. However, looking for consistency in early Leicas can be a fruitless task. I have discussed the consistency aspect with Jim Lager on a number of occasions and he agrees with me. In Britain they showed the whole of the camera serial number on the barrel of the matched Dallmeyer lens. This is an example from my collection

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William 

 

Edited 21 hours ago by willeica

[Lesoa]

4時間前、Giuliobigazziは言った：

面白い、これは理にかなっている。したがって、このスタイルのマウントは、私が思っていたように、必ずしも標準的なものよりも早いとは限りません。別のバリエーションです。したがって、37380もクローズフォーカスレンズだったに違いありません。

It seems that the presence or absence of the depth-of-field scale engraving on the barrels of No.380 and No.457 was not strictly based on the shipping order, but rather appeared to be mixed.

As you mentioned, it feels reasonable to regard this as one of the variations.

 

It is also interesting that it shares some similarities with the Elmar 50mm f/3.5 found on certain Leica A models.

I really appreciate all the information I’ve been able to learn from everyone here!

[luigi bertolotti]

I'd like to have confirmation (and Jerzy could be the right guy 😎) that the DOF scale of the Elmar 35 is indeed a separate collar, attached (screwed onto ?) to the barrel itself : in case the 457 lens we are speaking of had this collar simply removed (note the the small index at infinity well visible in pic #2... this is a critical positioning to be made when assemblying lens' barrel on mount) , and the 3 digits re-engraved on the "bare" collar : were they, originally, 5 digits ? Who knows... in the old thread linked in post #4 our late friend Pecole published the pic of an Elmar 35 with 5 digits, and a barrel unslanted and no DOF, apparently identical to this 457.  If this lens left the factory as new with the current aspect, or not, is hard to say... but anyway, if modified, was surely done at Leitz lab, and several reasons can be imagined : for instance, a pro user took a Leica Ic with 2-3 lenses including 35 (all matched of course) then , very satisfied, took a second body asking to match his current 35: matching, afaik, was made onto the camera body (shims on lens' mount), and, if the original lens had the collar, the quickiest way was to remove the collar with the previous number and engraving the new one, supposed that the user didn't care much the DOF scale.

Edited 19 hours ago by luigi bertolotti

[jerzy]

firstly a teaser🙂, 4 lenses with the same number, rather rare set

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vor 15 Stunden schrieb luigi bertolotti:

the DOF scale of the Elmar 35 is indeed a separate collar

yes, it is. It is slipped over and the screw fixing it is behind the focusing knob. DOF shown below comes from 5cm Elmar

Purpose of the hole on Lesoa lens is not known to me but it is not the hole for DOF ring.
Lens is  unique in the way that it is probably the only one non-std 3,5cm lens with only 3 digit number and without DOF.
We know that shipping date (what Leica reply with on inquiry) is not the production date, and here, to be precise when the switch from 5 to 3 digits happened we would need insight into records of engraving dept (which could not exist anymore). Thus my further explanations might be incirrect, although very probably.
The first non-std camera was 37280 (Hahne list, Band I). Dr Bawendi identified the last 5 digit as 37936. And from v.Einem publication we know that DOF scale has been introduced with approx 41000. This allows us to assign this particular lens (457) to a camera - Hahne list has only one non-std camera between 37986 and 41000. It is 37457. The next one non-std is 42457, but this one should have already DOF and thus no engraving on the mount itself.
And we need to keep in mind as well that cameras have been modified/upgraded and thus the lens could have been added to the IA (ending 457)  upgraded to IC non-std.
However there are strong indications that the lens was originally on 37457. Delivery records have as well information about the lenses which were shipped with non-std camera so Lesoa may try to send an inquiry about this camera to Leica

[Giuliobigazzi]

Jerzy, do you have a photo of the part of the lens with the collar removed? So we can establish if lens 457 originally had one. To me the shape looks different, with an extra ridge 

[luigi bertolotti]

Jerzy, you are always the best on very aged... 😉: what about the 0,5 focus ? how this further variant enters in the complex story between 37280 and 37936 (and further on) ? Was it a special order(*) or a sort of standard within a certain timeframe ?  The 37380 depicted by Pecole, very next to 37457, has no DOF collar but 5 digits engraved, and (apparently) regular 1mtr focus.

A bit OOT : does also the Elmar 50 exist in "no DOF collar" variant? Pecole's 37380 set isn't clear about 50... but the fact reported by William in #9 (37284 with 3 digits Elmar 50, but some kind of "repair" made few months after delivery) is intriguing... maybe DOF collar added with "new style" 3 digits engraving ?

The set of the four "743" non std lenses is astonishing... I thought that none would had ordered such a luxury, just to have the choice of another 50 a bit more luminous 😎

(*) in the linked old thread, also a short focus in feet did emerge, maybe another unique.

Edited 1 hour ago by luigi bertolotti