Is this crazy? Selling my M11 monochrome and going back to Leica Monochrome typ 246

[wolan]

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Hi

my first bw camera was the Leica Monochrome 246. This camera was a revelation for me. The SOOC files ware simply stunning, and I had to do nothing or maybe just add a bit of vignetting, which I like. Other than that every thing was perfect, contrast, tonal range, sharpness, deep blacks etc.

The camera has however a lot of limitations, the minimal ISO is rather high for example and makes it challenging to shoot WO, which I do very oft. So I decided to upgrade to a M11monochrom. Fantastic camera, but the files look a bit flat and I find myself very oft working in post to get to a result which I like.

Another serious problem with the M11m is the lack of sensor stabilization. It forces to use a minimum shutter speed of 4f. When I shoot with a red filter or in a dark environment with a moderate tele lens or do macro work then ISO goes up like crazy.

So I think I'll sell the M11m and will go back to the M 246.

What do you think? Do you see any cons in much such an old camera now (Leica is selling this model for around 3000$ with a year guarantee)?

Edited September 2 by wolan

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[Stephen.s1]

NOthing is forcing you to do something.  You're the boss of the camera.  Start by going all manual.   Yank that ISO button up and use it.

The M11 M is a well behaved camera.    I just bought a second one.

Good luck

 

[ApoVision]

Frankly? See the point of using an M3 over - say an M5 or M7, as the body itself doesn‘t have a significant impact on the IQ. Digital is different, sensor is part of the body. The M11 sensor (at least the bayer one) is one of the best in the world - so why go back to an old one? Just my few cents

[pgh]

You're not crazy - lots of people tend to work a bit better with some forced limitation. I would count myself among that group. Right now I'm debating jettisoning my X2d for a second film body (even more of a downgrade in IQ than you're considering)

The only thing I would say is that it's pretty easy to create a preset "starting point" for your monochrome files that addresses the flat files (which is a feature in letting photographers get the most detailed output possible, not a bug). 

I won't shoot an M11 of any iteration in large part because of the shutter speed issue you mention, which quite often at least partially negates IQ gains from the better sensor (Essentially many situations where the question is would you rather have an ISO 200 file from an M10 or an ISO 1250 file from an M11?). This is somewhat less of an issue with the Monochroms IMO, since noise is reduced and also better looking. I've found the M10M to be a sweet spot for me. I need to use 2/F and sometimes be careful but it also has IQ that is quite high. 

The old Leica cameras are basically every bit as good as they were the day they were released, lest we lose perspective of that. Also, money spent on gear is usually the least efficient way to spend money on making some good new pictures. So if you can get some extra cash and use it on anything else that helps you shoot more, that's probably for the best. 

Edited September 2 by pgh

[250swb]

1 hour ago, wolan said:

 

So I think I'll sell the M11m and will go back to the M 246.

What do you think? Do you see any cons in much such an old camera now (Leica is selling this model for around 3000$ with a year guarantee)?

Learn how to do some post processing instead. What do you want your camera to do, make your lunch for you and sweep the yard? These decisions about what you want and what technology gives you you make everyday, does your car demand you go straight on if you want to go left for example? Well it's the same with how your images look, Leica have no way to know what you want, they make the firmware neutral just so you have a great starting point for a photographer to do some simple post processing, which is what photographers do.

[mcqinternational]

why not m246 excellent camera .

[vkdev]

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hah. I used my m11 three times over the summer. all my other shots were taken on the m246. the only thing that upsets me is the narrow DR, I can either get correct shadows or correct skies. otherwise it's the best camera

[Dazzajl]

I can understand why you’d be thinking about this. I don’t personally care much for the output of the 10 or 11 mono variants but like all cameras, there are folks out there creating amazing images with them. 
 

The main attraction to me of a mono camera is the limitation. The push to be more thoughtful about the photographic process and the large dynamic range and inherent shoot now, fix later possibilities that offers doesn’t float my boat. 
 

The M246 does still offer very workable files though and certainly the raw files (or are they dng?) still need some work out of camera to get any bite and contrast. 
 

It will be heresy to some but maybe try the JPEG’s out of the M11, if you haven’t already? These will have some of the basic processing done for you and there is still much more room to edit a JPEG than any B&W film could ever offer. 

[costa43]

Do what makes you happy. What’s the point otherwise. If you prefer the m246 then it’s a no brainer. You get a camera you enjoy using more and a load of extra cash.

[NigelG]

FWIW I went back from a 246 to a silver M9M…😉

[Dazzajl]

13 minutes ago, NigelG said:

FWIW I went back from a 246 to a silver M9M…😉

This is the journey I’d like to make. Have sold the 246 but apparently, that’s the easy bit. 

[dkCambridgeshire]

2 hours ago, Dazzajl said:

I can understand why you’d be thinking about this. I don’t personally care much for the output of the 10 or 11 mono variants but like all cameras, there are folks out there creating amazing images with them. 
 

The main attraction to me of a mono camera is the limitation. The push to be more thoughtful about the photographic process and the large dynamic range and inherent shoot now, fix later possibilities that offers doesn’t float my boat. 
 

The M246 does still offer very workable files though and certainly the raw files (or are they dng?) still need some work out of camera to get any bite and contrast. 
 

It will be heresy to some but maybe try the JPEG’s out of the M11, if you haven’t already? These will have some of the basic processing done for you and there is still much more room to edit a JPEG than any B&W film could ever offer. 

Spending £8300 on an M11 Monochrom camera to produce "sooc JPEG files" 🤯  is not everyone's 'cuppa T' ....In fact in my book it's 'plain bonkers'  – I'm tempted to write something 'stronger' but doing so might risk a forum ban. Much of the enjoyment of digital photography is in coaxing the best images from DNG files for subsequent further processing – which can take time and effort and imagination. And optimising the exposure before pressing the shutter is another prerequisite for obtaining usable image files. Live view histograms (and when possible, adjustments thereto) can be a very good guide to correct exposure.

BW, dunk 

Edited September 2 by dkCambridgeshire

[Dazzajl]

2 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Spending £8300 on an M11 Monochrom camera to produce "sooc JPEG files" 🤯  is not everyone's 'cuppa T' ....In fact in my book it's 'plain bonkers'  – I'm tempted to write something 'stronger' but doing so might risk a forum ban. Much of the enjoyment of digital photography is in coaxing the best images from DNG files for subsequent further processing – which can take time and effort and imagination. 

BW, dunk 

That might be your enjoyment and it’s mine too, for the most part but maybe for the thread starter it’s not. 
 

If someone out there were to get their kicks shooting pegs on an M11M, it’s no skin off my nose. Vive la difference and live well I say. 

[pgh]

3 hours ago, 250swb said:

Learn how to do some post processing instead. What do you want your camera to do, make your lunch for you and sweep the yard? These decisions about what you want and what technology gives you you make everyday, does your car demand you go straight on if you want to go left for example? Well it's the same with how your images look, Leica have no way to know what you want, they make the firmware neutral just so you have a great starting point for a photographer to do some simple post processing, which is what photographers do.

This is a garbage response.

OP stated a preference for images from an earlier camera - a common enough sentiment on this forum. I even noted that they could make a preset, so I get where you're coming from - but hopefully I made it with um, a little bit of a different sentiment. Still, for many, that's not the same - and for many, the less time in front of the computer, the better. Photography is different for everyone and some take much more pleasure in the being out in the world part of it than the manipulating capture behind the desk part of it. Neither is better or worse, all that matters is the results (which are usually better if the original capture is of a higher skill than the post processing versus the opposite scenario). 

Edited September 2 by pgh

[250swb]

7 hours ago, pgh said:

This is a garbage response.

OP stated a preference for images from an earlier camera - a common enough sentiment on this forum. I even noted that they could make a preset, so I get where you're coming from - but hopefully I made it with um, a little bit of a different sentiment. Still, for many, that's not the same - and for many, the less time in front of the computer, the better. Photography is different for everyone and some take much more pleasure in the being out in the world part of it than the manipulating capture behind the desk part of it. Neither is better or worse, all that matters is the results (which are usually better if the original capture is of a higher skill than the post processing versus the opposite scenario). 

The lack of being in control of the files they make are what cause camera owners to spend thousands of dollars switching cameras and camera systems in the hope they'll find something that works 'out of the box'. So is it worth going back to the M246 if the OP already has an M11? Well the tradition for 'flat' images from Leica's Monchrom cameras started with the original M9 based MM, and has continued ever since, all based on the idea that with a flat image the photographer has a myriad of ways to manipulate the image. And yes the M246 does make flat images out of the camera (I've had one), but they may have a slight edge on the M11M given the increased dynamic range. And it's the dynamic range of the M11M that's the problem, the tones all need bunching up a little by adding contrast and maybe change the curve to make it look like a normal B&W photograph. And it's a simple job to do.

So with that in mind the 'problem' of time can be addressed. The very first consideration is that the photographer doesn't need to post process all the images they make, actually only processing the good ones would be a very good idea. For an established well known photographer it could be maybe nine or ten out of a hundred images that catch the eye, the ratio is still the same for digital as getting three or four good ones from a roll of 36. So time isn't really about the time spent adjusting the contrast etc., which can take four or five seconds per shot to do the basic's, but about the photographers inability to self edit their own photographs and mistakenly thinking they all need post processing to reveal the true qualities of the image. And this is the same for any type or make of camera used. So even taking twenty shoots per hundred and thinking you are better than Bresson or Adams, and then taking as much as thirty seconds to adjust contrast etc. for each shot, the whole job is going to take ten minutes. I bet people spend more time polishing their fucking camera than that.

[Chris W]

Just bought an M11 and processed a couple of my test shots to B&W. Wow, they are beautiful. I have a few purchased presets I can use, or just select B&W in Capture One.

In the end yes, absolutely, purchase the camera you love to use, whether that's an M11, M246 or M9M. If someone posts on the forum asking for opinions, I think it's OK to post the contrary opinion (try and persist with the M11, maybe with your own preset starting point) and not be told your post is 'garbage'.

[Chris W]

7 minutes ago, 250swb said:

The very first consideration is that the photographer doesn't need to post process all the images they make, actually only processing the good ones would be a very good idea. For an established well known photographer it could be maybe nine or ten out of a hundred images that catch the eye, the ratio is still the same for digital as getting three or four good ones from a roll of 36. 

For me it's about one or two images per 'photo walk'. And usually they aren't keepers, just images I want to explore more thoroughly. 

It takes between one and five minutes to process a raw image to my liking in Capture One.

[250swb]

16 minutes ago, Chris W said:

For me it's about one or two images per 'photo walk'. And usually they aren't keepers, just images I want to explore more thoroughly. 

It takes between one and five minutes to process a raw image to my liking in Capture One.

Same here, if I think I got more images I know I need to work harder in the initial cull. You make a good point about using presets, I use Silver Efex for B&W post processing and often run through a few similar presets just to confirm (or destroy) my initial ideas for the image, then roll my sleeves up and spend maybe twenty minutes on the one image from a session I think could go on Flickr or post to the forum. But there will be others that only amount to 'work in progress', and far more that aren't going anywhere. I should add that simply pressing 'Auto' in ACR can create a good enough rendition of a flat tone image as another starting point for post processing instead of a using a preset.

Edited September 3 by 250swb

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pgh]

6 hours ago, Chris W said:

Just bought an M11 and processed a couple of my test shots to B&W. Wow, they are beautiful. I have a few purchased presets I can use, or just select B&W in Capture One.

In the end yes, absolutely, purchase the camera you love to use, whether that's an M11, M246 or M9M. If someone posts on the forum asking for opinions, I think it's OK to post the contrary opinion (try and persist with the M11, maybe with your own preset starting point) and not be told your post is 'garbage'.

It wasn't the suggestion of a different post processing approach (which I made myself), it was the way it was done that was garbage. It was condescending - something there is no shortage of here unfortunately, and I have no problem saying so. 

[pgh]

6 hours ago, 250swb said:

The lack of being in control of the files they make are what cause camera owners to spend thousands of dollars switching cameras and camera systems in the hope they'll find something that works 'out of the box'. So is it worth going back to the M246 if the OP already has an M11? Well the tradition for 'flat' images from Leica's Monchrom cameras started with the original M9 based MM, and has continued ever since, all based on the idea that with a flat image the photographer has a myriad of ways to manipulate the image. And yes the M246 does make flat images out of the camera (I've had one), but they may have a slight edge on the M11M given the increased dynamic range. And it's the dynamic range of the M11M that's the problem, the tones all need bunching up a little by adding contrast and maybe change the curve to make it look like a normal B&W photograph. And it's a simple job to do.

So with that in mind the 'problem' of time can be addressed. The very first consideration is that the photographer doesn't need to post process all the images they make, actually only processing the good ones would be a very good idea. For an established well known photographer it could be maybe nine or ten out of a hundred images that catch the eye, the ratio is still the same for digital as getting three or four good ones from a roll of 36. So time isn't really about the time spent adjusting the contrast etc., which can take four or five seconds per shot to do the basic's, but about the photographers inability to self edit their own photographs and mistakenly thinking they all need post processing to reveal the true qualities of the image. And this is the same for any type or make of camera used. So even taking twenty shoots per hundred and thinking you are better than Bresson or Adams, and then taking as much as thirty seconds to adjust contrast etc. for each shot, the whole job is going to take ten minutes. I bet people spend more time polishing their fucking camera than that.

OP mentioned an issue beyond just the flatness of the files, but again - no issue with the suggestion of modifying how to do post, as I made it myself. 

The sort of incensed reply about tech needing to do everything for you was the garbage part and took the question with the sort of worst possible intent. Perhaps a more generous spirit is in order.  

People work differently, and they find different paths towards that. No need to judge it in such a way. For example, it takes me a relatively brief amount of time (in an objective sense) to work on my hasselblad files, and I don't much take to doing it. I've tried to learn to love it for almost four years. I've got it down, and I still don't like it. It's not about the time, part of it is about enjoying the process. Obviously the camera has no real shortcomings. But the subtleties between one or another are often only visible to the photographer, but that doesn't matter, especially if this is a pursuit of enjoyment. I keep my hasselblad for work, which is appropriate, because it feels like work, but I don't use it much for the enjoyment part of my photography. 

Edited September 3 by pgh