Found a rare dallmeyer super six 2” 1.9 cine lens…

[jaques]

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I was lucky enough to find a rare dallmeyer lens. It is C mount- with no focus hellicoid. I was able to take images with it on a Fuji x mount camera and they covered  the frame with some vignetting. 
 

I am wondering about converting the lens to M mount- if infinity focus can be achieved and the full frame covered?

 

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is the lens 

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[jaques]

Another pic:

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[Ecar]

Great find! Yes, it covers FF and can reach infinity.

[jaques]

could something like this be used- with the addition of a C to M42 adaptor ring? Would this lens be close to 50mm equivalent on a full frame camera?

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Mount-Adapter-Leica-Nikon-contax/dp/B0CB48HCDP?th=1

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Edited August 4 by jaques

[pgk]

There are various helicoid mounts available which might work. You can also get C mount adapters. BUT exactly what you will need depends on the positioning of the lens in front of the sensor at infinity and what is available to give you this. So before you do anything else you will need to measure the sensor to C mount flange with the lens positioned at infinity. Depending on your measurement you may, or indeed may not, be able to find adapters which will work. It all really depends on the physical space between the lens at infinity and the camera's flange. Sometimes this is simply too small and no viable adapter exists. If this is the case a custom conversion may be possible but at high cost. Super-sixes have a good value and a bit of a cult following but conversions may still be uneconomic as you may not get your money back if a custome conversion is needed.

FWIW another solution is a very narrow bellows but this too is tricky and requires dexterity and ingenuity to get to work - usually relatively cheap though.

[nitroplait]

11 hours ago, jaques said:

I am wondering about converting the lens to M mount- if infinity focus can be achieved and the full frame covered

I can't imagine this will cover full frame when you already see vignetting on Fuji X APS-C.

C-mount is normally used for 16mm film and would likely only be able to fully cover the diagonal of a 16mm cine frame.

[Ecar]

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Trust me, this one does cover FF.

The DSS 44/1.9 (or 1 3/4" depending on the market) is a bit marginal at infinity, but the 2" has FF coverage across the focus range.
Of course, there is some light fall-off in the corners (to be expected, as in all fast vintage glass), but no "hard" mechanical vignetting if converted properly.
These lenses were made in various versions and mounts, but were optically and dimensionally the same design. The fact that a particular copy is in C-mount doesn't necessarily mean that the lens can't cover FF. Actually, there's also a rare LTM version of this lens made for the (equally rare) 35mm Witness camera.

However, as @pgk wrote above, it's hard to say whether the combination of a C->M42 ring and an M42->M Shoten adapter would work or not.

Here's my custom converted copy - apologies for the poor smartphone shot:

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Edited August 4 by Ecar

[willeica]

Leica I Model A Standardised with a Dallmeyer 3 inch f4 C Mount Lens. Note the thick LTM mount on this.

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A photo taken with the Dallmeyer Popular lens on an M10 using an adapter. There is no sign of vignetting here.

The moral of the story is that you have to get your mounts right. I have a number of different Dallmeyer lenses on LTM mounts and I also have one directly fitted to a I Model A where the mount size is 33mm rather than 39mm. 

William 

 

[pgk]

If you search 'c mount to ltm' you will find a number of cheap adapters but of course these do not have a focus helicoil. It would be worth trying one (carefully) to see what the result is using live view (ltm to other mounts including Fuji X are also cheaply available) before deciding what to do next. It may be that one of the M macro adapters will work and there are no doubt other options. The problem is the short focal length - I use plenty of lenses on various cameras using an Arca Swiss 6x9 as the base system, but as soon as you start getting down to 'standard' 50mm (on 35mm format) and shorter, the physicalities become problematic simply because of the lack of space between such lenses and the camera mount. William's Dallmeyer is slightly longer and has a helicoid incorporated but no rf cam I would say. Even when made this would have been simpler than converting a 50mm lens or shorter although this was done as it was quite possible if tricky. Its rewarding using older lenses on digital cameras but often quite tricky to do so.

[willeica]

19 minutes ago, pgk said:

If you search 'c mount to ltm' you will find a number of cheap adapters but of course these do not have a focus helicoil. It would be worth trying one (carefully) to see what the result is using live view (ltm to other mounts including Fuji X are also cheaply available) before deciding what to do next. It may be that one of the M macro adapters will work and there are no doubt other options. The problem is the short focal length - I use plenty of lenses on various cameras using an Arca Swiss 6x9 as the base system, but as soon as you start getting down to 'standard' 50mm (on 35mm format) and shorter, the physicalities become problematic simply because of the lack of space between such lenses and the camera mount. William's Dallmeyer is slightly longer and has a helicoid incorporated but no rf cam I would say. Even when made this would have been simpler than converting a 50mm lens or shorter although this was done as it was quite possible if tricky. Its rewarding using older lenses on digital cameras but often quite tricky to do so.

Paul, I have 3 inch (C), 4 inch and 12 inch Dallmeyers on LTM mounts. The 12 inch is definitely coupled, but you have to transfer the distance setting to the front end of the lens, in other words it is a two stage design. I can't remember whether the 3 and 4 inch items are actually coupled, but they will focus on the back screen of an M10. I will check them again. It would be worthwhile with an expensive item like the f1.9 Super Six trying out a cheap adapter. With a modern digital camera you always have the option of back screen focus, of course.

William

[jaques]

So I took it out with the fuji and a C mount adapter and wide open the lens seems to be in focus at around 100 feet (rough guess)- though it is rather soft wide open. Does that help give any indication of how it may perform- or where the focus point may be- on a full frame camera?

If I stop the lens down however it quickly loses full frame coverage and has full black out vignetting? Would that behavior be different on a full frame camera with the lens positioned further away from the focal plane?

 

I am curious as to what type of C mount camera this lens was intended for- considering it doesn't have a focus hellicoid? The lens actually came with a sister lens- a super six 1" 1.9 also C mount with no focus hellicoid. That lens seems to focus at around 5 feet on my fuji.

Edited August 5 by jaques

[willeica]

8 hours ago, jaques said:

So I took it out with the fuji and a C mount adapter and wide open the lens seems to be in focus at around 100 feet (rough guess)- though it is rather soft wide open. Does that help give any indication of how it may perform- or where the focus point may be- on a full frame camera?

If I stop the lens down however it quickly loses full frame coverage and has full black out vignetting? Would that behavior be different on a full frame camera with the lens positioned further away from the focal plane?

 

I am curious as to what type of C mount camera this lens was intended for- considering it doesn't have a focus hellicoid? The lens actually came with a sister lens- a super six 1" 1.9 also C mount with no focus hellicoid. That lens seems to focus at around 5 feet on my fuji.

Can you post a photo of the lens on the C Mount adapter? I have to go out to an all day event today, but I will post some photos of my Dallmeyers all of which were adapted for use with Leicas a long time ago, probably in the 1920s and 30s. I also have some prewar Dallmeyer advertising for such adapted lenses.

William 

 

[pgk]

8 hours ago, jaques said:

So I took it out with the fuji and a C mount adapter and wide open the lens seems to be in focus at around 100 feet (rough guess)- though it is rather soft wide open. Does that help give any indication of how it may perform- or where the focus point may be- on a full frame camera?

If I stop the lens down however it quickly loses full frame coverage and has full black out vignetting? Would that behavior be different on a full frame camera with the lens positioned further away from the focal plane?

Usually coverage increases as a lens is stopped down which suggests that you are getting 'mechanical vignetting' which is simply due to the tube at the back of the lens. This may be part of the 'C' mount arrangement rather than the actual lens and may remove. Its difficult to say without seeing the lens or knowing how it is constructed. I think that it would be worth doing some more research and perhaps talking to optical specialists who deal with movie lenses to see if anyone knows more.

Such lenses can be very interesting to use but by today's standards may not perform particularly well, especially wide open. I have a short (~3.25") Cooke by TT&H made in the 1890s which produces pleasant and surprisingly sharp images, although it is nowhere near as precise as today's current aspherical lenses. I use it via my Arca Swiss and with a Sony A7 eries camera. But a 50mm will always be tricky because of the difficulty of dealing with the narrow physical difference between lens and camera mount. No doubt someone somewhere will have adapted a similar lens (there seems to be an enthusiasm for such modifified and converted lenses in Japan - try FB) so its characteristics should be findable somewhere.

[Ecar]

2 hours ago, pgk said:

... you are getting 'mechanical vignetting' which is simply due to the tube at the back of the lens. This may be part of the 'C' mount arrangement rather than the actual lens and may remove.

This. If you look at the picture I posted above, the cine mount part has been completely removed. Ditto on my other converted DSS lenses.
Also, the lens should be sharp @ f/1.9:

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[Ecar]

I forgot to mention that, should you wish to use filters and/or a hood (I'd strongly advise to use either or both as the front element is very exposed), Series V accessories screw in seamlessly on my copy. Just a pointer - I can't confirm that this is indeed the case for all versions. 

[willeica]

This advertisement is from the 1930s I think. You will see that Dallmeyer was getting precisely made mounts (called Micrometer Focus Mount) done for the use of the 2 inch f1.9 Super Six Anastigmat with Leicas. This allowed for even exposure all over (no vignetting). No one is doing this today as far as I know. I suspect that that the conversion shown by Ecar was done quite some time ago. Perhaps, he can supply information on that? What he shows is the lens head in a custom made mount and the first thing that needs to be done is to get the lens head out of the C-Mount. 

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I know that this is difficult to read, it is a screenshot from our LSI Viewfinder archive, but it shows that it was possible to do this in the 1930s.

William  

[Ecar]

Thanks, William. Very interesting information. The puzzling bits are the parts where mentions of RF coupling are struck through. Any idea why that is?
The later SS 2"/1.9 and Septac 2"/1.5 for the Ilford Witness were definitely RF coupled and built around a special (and brilliant IMHO) "interrupted" thread mount that enabled the lenses to be attached much faster to the camera. Of course, they were - and still are - compatible with Leica and other LTM cameras.

Regarding my lens shown above, it was actually converted only a few years ago in HK with a modern Yifeng brass helicoid as a starting point. Other shops (eg, Skyllaney or Ruhrlensworx), would either use their own modern helicoids or adapt ones salvaged from broken Leica, Canon, etc. rangefinder lenses. In any event, this kind of custom work involves multiple steps, optical and mechanical know-how and specialised equipment. Also, most conversions made by these specialists (or "Lens Masters" as they are called in Asia...) are entirely reversible.

And yes, in my experience, the original mount and fittings get removed in the vast majority of cases.

DIY 'hacks' are of course also possible. Some folks use cheap helicoids, tubes and other bits sourced online, make adjustments through trial and error and keep everything together with adhesive tape... Not sure I'd do that to a rare lens.

Edited August 6 by Ecar

[willeica]

9 hours ago, Ecar said:

Thanks, William. Very interesting information. The puzzling bits are the parts where mentions of RF coupling are struck through. Any idea why that is?
The later SS 2"/1.9 and Septac 2"/1.5 for the Ilford Witness were definitely RF coupled and built around a special (and brilliant IMHO) "interrupted" thread mount that enabled the lenses to be attached much faster to the camera. Of course, they were - and still are - compatible with Leica and other LTM cameras.

Regarding my lens shown above, it was actually converted only a few years ago in HK with a modern Yifeng brass helicoid as a starting point. Other shops (eg, Skyllaney or Ruhrlensworx), would either use their own modern helicoids or adapt ones salvaged from broken Leica, Canon, etc. rangefinder lenses. In any event, this kind of custom work involves multiple steps, optical and mechanical know-how and specialised equipment. Also, most conversions made by these specialists (or "Lens Masters" as they are called in Asia...) are entirely reversible.

And yes, in my experience, the original mount and fittings get removed in the vast majority of cases.

DIY 'hacks' are of course also possible. Some folks use cheap helicoids, tubes and other bits sourced online, make adjustments through trial and error and keep everything together with adhesive tape... Not sure I'd do that to a rare lens.

I believe that this point about focus coupling may relate to the date of the Dallmeyer document. I have another copy of the document which does not have the rangefinder coupling references crossed out.  I know that the 12 inch lens was changed to a one piece focus design with rangefinder coupling which is done on the Leica, but the lens still needed a telescope finder. I need to check out my 4 inch Dallmeyer to see whether it is rangefinder coupled -it is not stated to be on the Dallmeyer document. My memory is that when I used it on an M10 I focussed via the rear screen. With the 12 inch I focussed using the rangefinder in a Leica III and then transferred the distance number to the front element.

To go back to the OP's query, I believe that for a change of native mount it would best to go to a specialist such as Skyllaney who can check the various aspects, such as vignetting, as the conversion is being done.

William 

 

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[willeica]

The 4 Inch f5.6 Dallmeyer is not coupled and with my bad eyesight the only way that I can focus it is with an EVF on an M10 using the 'blow up' button. Note that I had to switch off the automatic lens detection feature. The minimum focus distance is 8 feet. I shot these at 1/250th f8 at ISO 1000. There is no sign of vignetting here and the only conversion is from DNG to JPEG, no other processing was done. Subject to the restrictions mentioned this is a fine lens. I have a lens hood (and a yellow filter) for the lens, but I decided to leave the hood off to present the lens in a 'pure' fashion. The British soldier is, of course, saluting the British lens 😀

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William 

 

Edited August 7 by willeica