Considering a Monochrom Body - Looking for advice

[250swb]

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4 hours ago, BWColor said:

shooting a Leica M10M is appreciating the limitations of the camera and appreciating the improving nature of the end product..hopefully a print.  In the end, I have all the equipment and technical knowledge and only lack creativity, but I’m working on it.

Appreciating the limitations is like surrendering to the guy who wrote the firmware for the camera and then the bloke who sold it to you! Even in the days of film cameras (of which there are many still in use) you had the choice of B&W or Colour film to put in it. Now somebody is telling you that you need two cameras, one for colour and one for B&W! It's absurd to buy into this, nobody can tell the difference between (say) a converted M10 file or an M10M file when viewing the image or a print, nobody wants to look at the pixels, they want to look at the image you created.

[fotografr]

15 hours ago, 250swb said:

Now somebody is telling you that you need two cameras, one for colour and one for B&W! It's absurd to buy into this, nobody can tell the difference between (say) a converted M10 file or an M10M file when viewing the image or a print, nobody wants to look at the pixels, they want to look at the image you created.

The last part of your statement is true. People want to view the final image and not the pixels that go into making it. The rest of your statement is false. There are a considerable number of very experienced photographers on this forum (I'm one of them) who use both the M10M and it's sister camera, the M10-R, or other combinations such as the M246 alongside the M240; Q2M and Q2; M11M and M11.  The reason we do this is that the dedicated b&w sensor is able to produce a pliable base image with unique tonal characteristics that are lacking in the colour counterpart. There is a discernable, qualitative difference.  Otherwise, we wouldn't tie up several thousand dollars with a camera that didn't hold a significant advantage for b&w imaging over the colour models. 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, fotografr said:

 There is a discernable, qualitative difference.  Otherwise, we wouldn't tie up several thousand dollars with a camera that didn't hold a significant advantage for b&w imaging over the colour models. 

I use a monochrome based camera more for the shooting mindset it fosters; no distractions thinking about potential color pics, much like B&W film days. IQ and print quality is picture-specific for me.  At times (in low light or for detail emphasis, for instance), the Monochrom ‘might’ hold an advantage.  At other times, use of color channels in PP with a color based camera can provide more flexibility and better subtle tonal shifts than using a colored glass filter on the Monochrom.  There are myriad other decisions I make in the overall shot-edit-print-display workflow that influence the end result, picture to picture.  A Monochrom doesn’t nearly ensure better quality results for me; but occasionally it helps a bit, and it’s more fun to use. 

[BWColor]

17 hours ago, 250swb said:

Appreciating the limitations is like surrendering to the guy who wrote the firmware for the camera and then the bloke who sold it to you! Even in the days of film cameras (of which there are many still in use) you had the choice of B&W or Colour film to put in it. Now somebody is telling you that you need two cameras, one for colour and one for B&W! It's absurd to buy into this, nobody can tell the difference between (say) a converted M10 file or an M10M file when viewing the image or a print, nobody wants to look at the pixels, they want to look at the image you created.

I understand where you are coming from, but my remarks were regarding using the camera.  I always have a filter on my lens.  For my color cameras these are UV, or Polarizer, but with my M11M I use yellow and red.  The filter further restricts the image recorded, but it also allows me to visualize what I’m trying to capture.  If you use your color camera, you can go a different direction when you edit, but once I mount that red filter, I’ve committed, along with my exposure, shutter speed and aperture to what I was hoping to capture.  My color camera is an amazing autofocus high resolution device, but the experience is different as is shooting with film.  If I wanted the security and flexibility of being able to edit my way into a great converted file, that would be acceptable and perhaps logically more than reasonable.  In the end, I only have one medium format camera where I can change films mid roll and I don’t use it.  It is a preference and I realize that I’m in the minority.

[BWColor]

Here is a use case for using a red filter that I wouldn’t have predicted success.  I would have been shooting with my yellow filter.  Images are mostly displayed in the last third of the video.

Using a Red Filter on the Street

[250swb]

3 hours ago, fotografr said:

The last part of your statement is true. People want to view the final image and not the pixels that go into making it. The rest of your statement is false. There are a considerable number of very experienced photographers on this forum (I'm one of them) who use both the M10M and it's sister camera, the M10-R, or other combinations such as the M246 alongside the M240; Q2M and Q2; M11M and M11.  The reason we do this is that the dedicated b&w sensor is able to produce a pliable base image with unique tonal characteristics that are lacking in the colour counterpart. There is a discernable, qualitative difference.  Otherwise, we wouldn't tie up several thousand dollars with a camera that didn't hold a significant advantage for b&w imaging over the colour models. 

I like the way you use the word 'we', like you are a club of experienced photographers and anybody who doesn't own an M11M or disagrees with you isn't an experienced photographer.

But what I read into your position that is that you use a different camera purely for its own technical characteristics and do nothing else, or very little, to add your own character or style into the photograph? So how does that work for photographers who do have their own style and preferences and don't agree with or need the 'base image' Leica provides for you? If a photographer can find a use for the colour channels when editing their B&W images I suggest they have plenty of experience and knowledge, possibly more so than relying on a monochrome camera. I wonder what the people in your experienced photographer club do about previous work if the M11M is so much a requirement, are all previous photographs now rubbish? It looks more like 'the dilettante camera club' from where I'm standing.

Edited October 14 by 250swb

[fotografr]

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1 hour ago, 250swb said:

I like the way you use the word 'we', like you are a club of experienced photographers and anybody who doesn't own an M11M or disagrees with you isn't an experienced photographer.

But what I read into your position that is that you use a different camera purely for its own technical characteristics and do nothing else, or very little, to add your own character or style into the photograph? So how does that work for photographers who do have their own style and preferences and don't agree with or need the 'base image' Leica provides for you? If a photographer can find a use for the colour channels when editing their B&W images I suggest they have plenty of experience and knowledge, possibly more so than relying on a monochrome camera. I wonder what the people in your experienced photographer club do about previous work if the M11M is so much a requirement, are all previous photographs now rubbish? It looks more like 'the dilettante camera club' from where I'm standing.

There's absolutely no need for the snarky attitude. I explained the "we" as that group of people who use the monochrome version of their specific type of camera system in addition to the colour version. If you want to call that a "club," then I think that would have to also refer to every member of this forum because we all use Leica cameras, including you. 

I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that my position is that I "use a different camera purely for its own technical characteristics and do nothing else, or very little, to add (my) own character or style into the photograph."  What about choice of subject matter, composition, use of light and shadow, tonal values and textures? Don't you think those aspects come into play?

I also did not make any judgement about non-monochrome b&w images being "rubbish." That is entirely your word and is a straw man argument where you claim I suggested something then go on to discredit me. 

Some people, like Jeff for example, are unusually knowledgeable and experienced at using editing tools to get exactly the look they want. Others, like me, get the end result we want primarily from the original file. I do very little editing because I am quite satisfied with what the M10M gives me to start with. I've used the M10M and M10-R side by side and tried to get the M10-R images to match the M10M and I can't do it. There's a subtle, creamy transition from zone to zone with the M10M that I value and I can't get converted files to match it.  I find the transition with the M10-R much more abrupt.  By the way, I do not own a M11M, nor did I imply such.

That's about all I'm going to say on this subject. I have no desire to get into an insult hurling contest with you. It achieves nothing.

Edited October 14 by fotografr

[mpauliks]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb fotografr:

Some people, like Jeff for example, are unusually knowledgeable and experienced at using editing tools to get exactly the look they want.

This is a key sentence IMO! I totally agree! When you know your tools, then you do not need a monochrome cam. Looking only from the result perspective!

[mpauliks]

I want to add that my experience with 246 was, that any image requires post processing. As the 246 image are flat IMO. BUT this is not a disadvantage! The opposite is the case! By providing flat images you can process them in any direction you want! If you know, how to do it. So, you have a learning curve.

[Jeff S]

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Edited October 14 by Jeff S

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, fotografr said:

 

Some people, like Jeff for example, are unusually knowledgeable and experienced at using editing tools to get exactly the look they want. 

Thanks, but I don’t consider myself an editing expert, and even if that were so, editing is only one of myriad variables…from shot to print, and even display lighting… that go into a worthy picture and print for me.  The camera, and lens, comprise part of that equation.  But having a “good eye” and making good decisions at every stage of the process remain paramount. In today’s world, there are many incredible tools (hardware and software and print materials);  there are fewer excuses for inferior files, or results, than in days gone by. But the photographer has always been the main differentiator IMO. 

[fotografr]

5 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Thanks, but I don’t consider myself an editing expert, and even if that were so, editing is only one of myriad variables…from shot to print, and even display lighting… that go into a worthy picture and print for me.  The camera, and lens, comprise part of that equation.  But having a “good eye” and making good decisions at every stage of the process remain paramount. In today’s world, there are many incredible tools (hardware and software and print materials);  there are fewer excuses for inferior files, or results, than in days gone by. But the photographer has always been the main differentiator IMO. 

Different wording but essentially the same point I made in paragraph 2, comment #67.

[Markey]

I use a 246 and prefer it to my previous converted BW images.

Maybe that`s down to my limitations who knows.

The monochrome sensor does (as far as I understand it) give you a few stops extra low light and a higher ISO ceiling .

Since using the 246 (had it quite a few years now) a never convert my colour files to BW ..

Just my preference 

[fotografr]

That's how I feel about the M10M.

[mpauliks]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Markey:

The monochrome sensor does (as far as I understand it) give you a few stops extra low light and a higher ISO ceiling .

Yes, this was that time as we bought the 246. A color M was not comparable for lowlight. I think the 240 that time. However meanwhile M11 is a complete different beast. You loose maybe 1 EV compared to M11M according to lab tests. Sure this is 1 EV but... both horses run on super high level IMO.

 

[Jeff S]

5 minutes ago, fotografr said:

Different wording but essentially the same point I made in paragraph 2, comment #67.

Sure, just wanted to clarify that my results are not due to editing prowess. But I also have probably never made an exhibition-worthy print, darkroom or digital, that didn’t require some degree of editing after file generation. 

[mpauliks]

I think, at the end it is about our experiences during capturing. The feeling to go with a monochrome cam only is just different. And you make different images! 

[Markey]

2 minutes ago, mpauliks said:

Yes, this was that time as we bought the 246. A color M was not comparable for lowlight. I think the 240 that time. However meanwhile M11 is a complete different beast. You loose maybe 1 EV compared to M11M according to lab tests. Sure this is 1 EV but... both horses run on super high level IMO.

 

Thanks for that .

I was slowly coming to the conclusion that the colour sensors on later models were "better " at bw conversions than they once were.

However I think my inclination would still be to by a dedicated BW camera.

[mpauliks]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Markey:

However I think my inclination would still be to by a dedicated BW camera.

Yes, I can understand you! And a M11M is a dream  Today there is no emulation of a M11M to my knowledge!

 

Edited October 14 by mpauliks

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Markey]

Just now, mpauliks said:

Yes, I can understand you! And a M11M is a dream

Whaaaa !