Considering a Monochrom Body - Looking for advice

[250swb]

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3 hours ago, fotografr said:

By the way, I do not own a M11M, nor did I imply such.

 

But you do list the cameras you do own, and if that isn't relevant to your elitist attitude and your 'experienced' understanding of photography you have a gear related problem and not a photography problem. Owning cameras and knowing what they can do does not make you an experienced photographer, it just means you own cameras.

Edited October 14 by 250swb

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[Olaf_ZG]

My humble take on the monochrom. My path was mm - m10m - mm plus q2m.

Personally I totally dislike converting color into b/w. Once seen in color on the screen, it’s hard to unsee. Personally, I also dislike having to spend lots of time with processing. 1-2 minutes per kept image (after heavily culling) is the max I want to spend, and I simply love the output of the mm with a small curves adjustment. The m10m might be a better camera, haptics wise, I prefer the mm.

Where for me the monochrom’s shine are indoor event photography where flash isn’t an option. I used to do weddings, but getting older, recently i visit more funerals then weddings. In Croatia it is a habit to have a drink or lunch in a restaurant. Here people grief, but also enjoy memories. Using flash would be intruding, but a monochrom can keep up due to its high iso possibilities.

I tried with the q2, m10, q3 43. None of them were able to deliver me a great reportage in a dark place without heavy processing. A monochrom sees in the dark.

I rebought the mm because of its files, and bought the q2m to see in the dark for moody events.

Processing nowadays can do most things. But the question is, what do you want from your photography? For most of my images, I want them to be done in camera, and I might need a small crop, curve adjustment and some dodging/ burning. More I don’t want to do in post. But that’s me. I spend 8h a day behind a computer because of work, so privately I like as little as possible.

Converting color to b/w takes to much time to me, as I simply take too much time for finetuning the last tones within a image…

[IkarusJohn]

What’s an mm?

[mpauliks]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb 250swb:

But you do list the cameras you do own, and if that isn't relevant to your elitist attitude and your 'experienced' understanding of photography you have a gear related problem and not a photography problem. Owning cameras and knowing what they can do does not make you an experienced photographer, it just means you own cameras.

Let´s calm down a bit. It is a very interesting topic IMO! Myself still has the opinion not to buy a monochrom only cam, as you can achieve the same image result by converting IMO.

[mpauliks]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Olaf_ZG:

A monochrom sees in the dark.

You win ca. 1 EV. That´s it. Using a modern cam this is not such a big advantage anymore today IMO

[mpauliks]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Olaf_ZG:

For most of my images, I want them to be done in camera,

Then you can forget e.g. 246 imo. As 246 images are flat for post processing. 

[250swb]

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2 hours ago, mpauliks said:

I want to add that my experience with 246 was, that any image requires post processing. As the 246 image are flat IMO. BUT this is not a disadvantage! The opposite is the case! By providing flat images you can process them in any direction you want! If you know, how to do it. So, you have a learning curve.

Flat images are what Leica have made through the firmware since the first Monochrom M . And in the day new users were ecstatic about the silvery tones and the shadow detail, ignoring the fact that they couldn't recognise that  their images were 'flat'. And now we have another newer generation of photographers buying into 'dynamic range' (meaning flat and boring). Except now they are paying specifically for a flat and boring dynamic range, damn it they'll get every ounce of that dynamic range and call it a success, even if their images are flat and boring. You don't pay £9000 and not want to get every ounce out of flat and boring if you can help it. Check any M11M photo thread and it won't be long before you fall asleep because there only a few exceptions to flat and boring out there.

[250swb]

7 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

What’s an mm?

M Monochrom, an M9 Monochrom, an MM.

[mpauliks]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb 250swb:

Flat images are what Leica have made through the firmware since the first Monochrom M . And in the day new users were ecstatic about the silvery tones and the shadow detail, ignoring the fact that they couldn't recognise that  their images were 'flat'. And now we have another newer generation of photographers buying into 'dynamic range' (meaning flat and boring). Except now they are paying specifically for a flat and boring dynamic range, damn it they'll get every ounce of that dynamic range and call it a success, even if their images are flat and boring. You don't pay £9000 and not want to get every ounce out of flat and boring if you can help it. Check any M11M photo thread and it won't be long before you fall asleep because there only a few exceptions to flat and boring out there.

I own all emulations for the Leice monochrom cams, except M11M. What I can see: Leica is rowing back in flatness. But this is just my impression from emulating M9M up to M10M.

[Olaf_ZG]

16 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

What’s an mm?

Sorry, mm is the - at least I thought - common shortcut for the original monochrom, the m9m

[250swb]

Just now, mpauliks said:

I own all emulations for the Leice monochrom cams, except M11M. What I can see: Leica is rowing back in flatness. But this is just my impression from emulating M9M up to M10M.

I've had the MM (which I should never have sold) and the M246 (which I was happy to sell) and dynamic range has never been a 'thing' for me. I mostly use film, and I'm happy enough if my digital camera has a similar dynamic range as the film I use, it is not a contest like how high can you piss with an M11M, it's all about expression and creativity. The simple fact of creativity is somehow lost on people who worship the camera and not the image @fotografr

[Olaf_ZG]

12 minutes ago, mpauliks said:

Then you can forget e.g. 246 imo. As 246 images are flat for post processing. 

As far as I know, all monochrom’s are flat (with the m9m) being least flat. Talking raw files. That’s why a curves adjustment is needed. Or levels, depends on your preference.

Monochrom files are just a base for further processing, just like a b/w negative.

[mpauliks]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Olaf_ZG:

As far as I know, all monochrom’s are flat (with the m9m) being least flat. Talking raw files. That’s why a curves adjustment is needed. Or levels, depends on your preference.

Monochrom files are just a base for further processing, just like a b/w negative.

Here you go. SL3-S image converted by using different Leica monochrom cams. https://www.flickr.com/gp/mpauliks/AtP5900KT5

[Markey]

9 minutes ago, 250swb said:

I've had the MM (which I should never have sold) and the M246 (which I was happy to sell) and dynamic range has never been a 'thing' for me. I mostly use film, and I'm happy enough if my digital camera has a similar dynamic range as the film I use, it is not a contest like how high can you piss with an M11M, it's all about expression and creativity. The simple fact of creativity is somehow lost on people who worship the camera and not the image @fotografr

Your Flickr is full of beautiful frames Steve so I`d be the last one to try and convince you of anything.

As for me I`m happy so far with my 246 for mono lacking ,as I do ,the ability to produce such lovely shots any other way  .

It all comes down to ability I guess.

[Olaf_ZG]

18 minutes ago, mpauliks said:

You win ca. 1 EV. That´s it. Using a modern cam this is not such a big advantage anymore today IMO

This might be true on paper, but I never understood the graphs in photography. Sadly the last 18 months I attended three family funerals. I am a firm believer that family happenings should be captured, even it is a funeral.

The first two I used a m10m with 50mm. Shutterspeed around 1/125, aperture between f4 and f8, auto iso upto 25k.

ofcourse there was noise, but being b/w, it simply didn’t bother the image.

The last funeral I had the Q43 (sold the m10m to fund this one). Same settings except for auto iso, only up to 6400.

I was not happy with the results. There was a difference in the end result.

Not sure if the m9m is as good as a m10m in this regard, it is a different camera. In the end I decided to buy back a Q2m as I assume its ability in the dark is as the m10m, but it has macro and weatherproofing, so a certain advantage.

The ability of the monochrom to produce a great picture in the dark, not one, but a complete session, is why I will keep a monochrom.

Wished I had a monochrom when doing weddings…

[mpauliks]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Olaf_ZG:

In the end I decided to buy back a Q2m

Some of my friends say, they are super happy with Q2M! Go with it!

[Olaf_ZG]

3 minutes ago, mpauliks said:

Here you go. SL3-S image converted by using different Leica monochrom cams. https://www.flickr.com/gp/mpauliks/AtP5900KT5

Michael, did you read what I wrote? You show me daylight images. This even a non-leica can do

Now, go out to a dark pub, restaurant, take some images, and show me you are really happy with the noise/structure seen on the people’s faces… without denoising. Push your SL3s upto 25k… 

It might be ok-ish, but a m10m still will look good.

I am not trying to convince you. I am just telling my use case for a monochrom.

for portraits i use a sl2 and am perfectly happy with it, but studio environment with flash and iso100.

[BWColor]

21 minutes ago, 250swb said:

Flat images are what Leica have made through the firmware since the first Monochrom M . And in the day new users were ecstatic about the silvery tones and the shadow detail, ignoring the fact that they couldn't recognise that  their images were 'flat'. And now we have another newer generation of photographers buying into 'dynamic range' (meaning flat and boring). Except now they are paying specifically for a flat and boring dynamic range, damn it they'll get every ounce of that dynamic range and call it a success, even if their images are flat and boring. You don't pay £9000 and not want to get every ounce out of flat and boring if you can help it. Check any M11M photo thread and it won't be long before you fall asleep because there only a few exceptions to flat and boring out there.

Your post has me interested in what you are seeing as flat and boring.  Please post a link to such a thread.  I want to see if I’m someone that doesn’t recognize flat and boring.

I shoot the M11M a bit different than my digital color.  I think that I approach exposure with the care that I use with E100, or Velvia.  Very different media with very different exposure requirements, but the M11M and E100 take some care in shooting.  I regularly use highlight metering and exposure compensation to make sure that I retain important highlights.  I regularly use red filters, which makes for quite contrasty images.  I shoot is a fairly consistent manner, so in Lightroom Classic I can usually use global settings to recover the shadows and there is an amazing amount of information in the shadows.

So, if folks are just shooting without modifying metering and without making adjustments in post, then I can see where files will be flat, but why would someone post those images?  That is why I think that I might not be recognizing the flat/boring that your are commenting on.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[mpauliks]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Olaf_ZG:

Michael, did you read what I wrote? You show me daylight images.

For Dynamic Range over ISO I posted already to look at the lab results. DR is regardless of daylight or lowlight btw! The Adams zone system is relevant for daylight too! E.g. 246 has serious problems to cover all zones. Anyway, what I demonstrated that the "flatness" of the different Leica monochrom cams is different. You see it, right?

[Olaf_ZG]

Just now, BWColor said:

Your post has me interested in what you are seeing as flat and boring.  Please post a link to such a thread.  I want to see if I’m someone that doesn’t recognize flat and boring.

I shoot the M11M a bit different than my digital color.  I think that I approach exposure with the care that I use with E100, or Velvia.  Very different media with very different exposure requirements, but the M11M and E100 take some care in shooting.  I regularly use highlight metering and exposure compensation to make sure that I retain important highlights.  I regularly use red filters, which makes for quite contrasty images.  I shoot is a fairly consistent manner, so in Lightroom Classic I can usually use global settings to recover the shadows and there is an amazing amount of information in the shadows.

So, if folks are just shooting without modifying metering and without making adjustments in post, then I can see where files will be flat, but why would someone post those images?  That is why I think that I might not be recognizing the flat/boring that your are commenting on.

I agree with @250swb. There are many flat images, but not only in the m11m threads. In any monochrom thread. But then, I recently went through the main street photography thread. The first 50 pages were really great, after that, it were images of people looking at there phones. Flat, boring.

The files of the monochrom need in most case some adjustments. The “negative” shows greys, you need to add some life to it. My opinion though.

Processing, at least curves (in the old days, selecting your photopaper and filter while printing) and dodging/burning, has always been part of the game. Whatever price of the camera, this remains.