FILCA

[lmans]

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I know when researching FILCA's that there are A b and C.... right? Why? is one more pertinent 'time wise' to a particular Leica production number? My Leica 1 Model A is from early 1930 with a serial number around 25,000.  So given that, does that help me decide on a FILCA? I would like to try this and bulk load to see how it works out and yes, I can use the current 35mm cassettes but want to try the real deal.... thanks in advance. Jim

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[TomB_tx]

FILCA A & B differed mainly the the design of the "catch spring" that holds it closed until opened by the baseplate key. I have both and they both work fine in my early Leica.

[willeica]

4 hours ago, lmans said:

I know when researching FILCA's that there are A b and C.... right? Why? is one more pertinent 'time wise' to a particular Leica production number? My Leica 1 Model A is from early 1930 with a serial number around 25,000.  So given that, does that help me decide on a FILCA? I would like to try this and bulk load to see how it works out and yes, I can use the current 35mm cassettes but want to try the real deal.... thanks in advance. Jim

By far the most common one is the FILCA B. There is a long thread on this forum all about the different types of FILCA 

William 

[nitroplait]

15 hours ago, lmans said:

So given that, does that help me decide on a FILCA?

For your 1930 camera, type B would be the most time correct match as far as I understand. Lucky for you, it the easiest fo find.

I don't recommend you buying too many before you have tried. You may well want to return to more modern cartridges when you have tried the "real deal" - they are solid and impressive but not really practical IMO.

Before buying, make sure the "spring lock" or "catch spring" is working as intended. If it has lost its ability to press against the cartridge, there is no easy way to fix it to my knowledge.
They are usually ok but I have see a few where I think a user has used too much force and  pulled the spring out too far.

[lmans]

Thanks all....great links to read. One never knew ...

I will look at getting (1) type B.....I do want to try it. I can see it is more of an issue than a regular modern cartridge but also, it is the experience of shooting an old camera like it was intended to be shot....    🙂

[TomB_tx]

5 hours ago, nitroplait said:

Before buying, make sure the "spring lock" or "catch spring" is working as intended. If it has lost its ability to press against the cartridge, there is no easy way to fix it to my knowledge.
They are usually ok but I have see a few where I think a user has used too much force and  pulled the spring out too far.

Leitz had a FILCA repair tool to rivet on replacement springs for the FILCA B. I bought one from DAG and fixed a couple before I ran out of springs and rivets...

[nitroplait]

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2 hours ago, lmans said:

is the experience of shooting an old camera like it was intended to be shot....    🙂

Absolutely. The Leica I A isn't the most practical camera in the first place. Take your time and enjoy the ride 🙂

 

[Doug A]

The real issue is bulk loading in general, not the FILCA particularly. If you want to bulk load for whatever reason (I do because I prefer to shoot 12-exposure rolls) the FILCA is as practical and easy to use in an LTM Leica or copy as any of the other bulk loading cassettes.

But loading the FILCA can be another issue. First, the bulk loader must be able to close the FILCA. The Watson and Alden loaders can do this. As far as I know the AP/Lloyds/Bobinquick type loaders can not. Also, the FILCA is taller than standard factory load cassettes and modern bulk loading cassettes. I have used several versions of the Watson loaders and the only one that works nicely with the FILCA is the Watson 100. Unlike the other Watson loaders the chamber that holds the cassette is the length of the FILCA and the loader is supplied with a shim that reduces the length of the chamber to that of the other cassettes. (The Alden 74 can be modified to work almost as well but thats a topic for another thread.)

[nitroplait]

If you only use Barnack Leica's and shoot in the slow tempo people shot film in 1925 and process your own film, the FILCA is perfectly fine.

None of the bulk loaders I have (with the capability of opening/closing a FILCA or IXMOO) are particularly good at the job. I don't close the cassette in the bulk loader before spooling. When I am done spooling,  I put the bulk loader (I prefer an old German Fullfix loader) in a changing bag before removing the cassette. I can then close the cassette correctly with my hands in the bag.
It works best for me that way.

There are other inconveniences with FILCAs

You can't use the FILCAs in other cameras. It is also a bit annoying to get the film out of them for processing IMO - at least if you don't do it routinely.
You can't count on getting them back if you need to have your film processed professionally. 

You probably don't want to try bringing them through security in an airport - the resemblance with high caliber ammunition is too close for comfort.

BTW: I think the late Tom Abrahamsson said he loaded his FILCAs and IXMOOs by pulling and cutting the required length from the bulk roll in the darkroom, and rolled them by hand in the dark.

[qqphot]

I use FILCAs a lot because I too like to shoot 12 exposure rolls. I use standard Watson loaders but do the loading in the darkroom so I don't end up losing exposures to fogged ends. It would probably be quicker to do it Abrahamsson style with pre-cut lengths of film, but I don't like handling the film that much, and in addition the Watson loader lets me count frames by listening to the clicks. 

[zebra0312]

Hello! First post here, I didn't wanna start another thread about the same thing pretty much, if I should just tell me. Got a bulk load of FILCAs and IXMOOs (around 100) and most of them were just your bog standard FILCA Bs everyone knows and loves but I also got like 5 FILCA A in there, 2 were broken beyond repair but 3 of them seem to work fine. I just wondered how old they were, probably considerably older than the Bs if a 1930 Leica IA already asks for a FILCA B for historical correctness, if im understanding it right? Also they seem exceedingly rare compared. Does it even matter except that theyre less easy to open and close or are there any collectors for this kind of stuff (probably since its Leica ...)?

[Roland Zwiers]

I aquired five brass cassettes that I like to use with a modified Leica IIIb.
[The modification concerns the flash synchronisation of the Leica IIIf.]

Now loading these cassettes is a technique that I still have to accomplish.
I use bulkloaders for lengths of 30m, so I am familiar with spooling reusable 35mm cassettes.
It is indeed a good option to do the same with these brass Leica cassettes if there is sufficient space in the film chamber of the bulkloader.

Literature of the 1920s-1930s shows that there must be an alternative solution as well.
In these years one could buy re-fills for 35mm film that could be inserted in the brass Leica cassette in broad daylight.
[In addition one could buy at a lower price pre-cut film lenghts of 1,60m so as to re-fill a brass Leica cassette in the darkroom]

So I guess it should also be possibe to replicate these daylight refills from the 1920s and 1930s.
Very likely these were:

• plastic or metal spools
• with 1,60m of film
• with a pre-cut Leica film leader
• and additional backing paper.

One upcoming experiment is to replicate these daylight refills using a plastic spool from an ordinary 35mm cassette.

Roland

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[willeica]

5 hours ago, Roland Zwiers said:

I aquired five brass cassettes that I like to use with a modified Leica IIIb.
[The modification concerns the flash synchronisation of the Leica IIIf.]

Now loading these cassettes is a technique that I still have to accomplish.
I use bulkloaders for lengths of 30m, so I am familiar with spooling reusable 35mm cassettes.
It is indeed a good option to do the same with these brass Leica cassettes if there is sufficient space in the film chamber of the bulkloader.

Literature of the 1920s-1930s shows that there must be an alternative solution as well.
In these years one could buy re-fills for 35mm film that could be inserted in the brass Leica cassette in broad daylight.
[In addition one could buy at a lower price pre-cut film lenghts of 1,60m so as to re-fill a brass Leica cassette in the darkroom]

So I guess it should also be possibe to replicate these daylight refills from the 1920s and 1930s.
Very likely these were:

• plastic or metal spools
• with 1,60m of film
• with a pre-cut Leica film leader
• and additional backing paper.

One upcoming experiment is to replicate these daylight refills using a plastic spool from an ordinary 35mm cassette.

Roland

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Roland, the manuals of those days mentioned daylight loading film and showed how to use it. I’m out at the moment, but I can post later showing how it was done, that is if someone else has not done so by then.

William 

[Roland Zwiers]

William,

That woud be interesting!
In this way we may replicate these daylight refills!

In the meantime I have checked my bulk loaders for 100feet/30m rolls.
One such loader indeed accepts the brass Leica cassettes and even has the option for opening and closing.
I had this loader for ages but never understood what was the function of this turning knob of the other side of the winding lever.

The solution that I used just now is to put the metal spool of a brass Leica cassette inside a plastic reloadabe cassette.
Then wind 40 frames so as to fill the reloadable cassette.
Next, in total darkness take the Leica spool out of the plastic cassette and place it in the brass Leica cassette again.
It sounds complicated, but when one is used to these plastic reloadable cassettes it is relatively easy.

A future experiment will be to load another brass Leica cassette right away inside the bulk loader with the open/close function.

Roland

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Roland Zwiers]

Curt Emmermann (1930) Photographieren mit der Leica mentions the daylight refill option (in German: Tageslichtspulen)  on page 13.
He mentions a paperstrip (Papierstreifen) that holds to the filmleader (Filmanfang).
Much as one would expect.

Unfortunately, he does not show an image of the dayligh refill.
In his description he refers to figure 8 (Abb. 8).
But figure 8 on page 11 shows how to insert in total darkness the regular Leica spool into the brass cassette housing.
On this page Emmermann explains that total darkness is not necessary with the daylight refills.

Aagain, much as one would expect.
But still there is no picture of the daylight refill (tageslichtspulen) itself.

So I assume that the daylight refill amounted to a spool with 36 frames with in addition the film leader and a protective paper strip.
One could replicate this in the darkroom for daylight use.

Roland

 

 

 

. 

[willeica]

Here you are, Roland. Extracts from the Leica manuals of January 1933 and July 1935 respectively. You have to look carefully for 'daylight loading spools' which may have been paper backed and then 'Leica cassettes', some of which were single use. You also need to look at the companies named and how there were more suppliers in 1935 than in 1933. I know you will look through all of details here and compare them with everything else that you have. A word of warning, though, not everything that went into Leica manuals back then was actually introduced or available. 

 

Leica Manual January 1933.pdf

Leica Manual July 1935.pdf

William 

[Roland Zwiers]

William,

This is an interesting discussion again.
The instructions in these 1933 and 1935 manuals are similar to Curt Emmerman (1930) and the Leica manual of 1928.
Even the images look the same.
This suggests close cooperation with Leitz.

But as far as I can see these images do not show the daylight refills themselves.
One can see the perforations of the film! 
The manuals point out that the daylight refills have a protective paper which has to be removed carefully.
This is not illustrated with additional images.
I still have to consult Fritz Vith on this issue 🙂

Note that daylight refills are already mentioned in Leitz (November 1926).
Alan was so kind as to send me a copy.
This overlaps with a research project on Leica-film as a concept (as compared to the original 35mm cine negative film of the 1890s), which is still work in progress.

For this project it is important to know at what stage producers of 35mm cine negative film began to change specifications in order to accomodate Leica photography.
E.g. in November 1926, did Leitz itself provide films in lenghts of 1,6m for darkroom use?
Did Leitz itself offer the alternative of daylight refills?
Or had by that date Agfa and Perutz already agreed to sell their cine negative films (normally sold in lenghts of 30-120m) in Leica-adjusted formats?

To be continued.

Roland

 

   

 

 

[Roland Zwiers]

The March 1925 manual does not mention the daylight refill option yet.
The film has to be wound in the cassette in the darkroom.

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[Roland Zwiers]

In November 1926 Leitz offers the Agfa and Perutz films both in pre-cut sizes (for darkroom refills) and as daylight refills (Tageslichtspulen) at a higher price.
So I would like to know in what capacity Leitz is selling these films.

Is Leitz buying Agfa and Perutz films in large 120m rolls and cutting these in smaller sizes for Leica users? 
Has Leitz designed the daylight refills itself as a special service?
Even with no further involbvement by Agfa or Perutz?

Or were Agfa and Perutz so impressed by the Leica I that after March 1925 they volunteered to make their cine negative films available in Leica-suitable sizes themselves?
With Leitz acting as an agent for the sale of these re-packed Agfa and Perutz films?

Roland

     

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[willeica]

3 hours ago, Roland Zwiers said:

But as far as I can see these images do not show the daylight refills themselves.
One can see the perforations of the film! 
The manuals point out that the daylight refills have a protective paper which has to be removed carefully.
This is not illustrated with additional images.
I still have to consult Fritz Vith on this issue 🙂

Look at pages 55-59 of Vith (1933 edition) re preloaded daylight film. These films were preloaded on spools and backed with paper which was removed once the spool was inserted in the FILCA. There are some photos, but these are not particularly instructive. Note the reference to the instructions which came with this spool.  Towards the back of of the edition of the Vith book, which I have, there is an Agfa advertisement for Agfa Leitz Cartridges (German Patent applied for) with the description 'They dispense with the purchase and use of a special cassette and their light tight wrapping allows of loading into the camera at any time out of doors'. There is no photo with that description. I suggest that you look for a history of Agfa 35mm film, but I must assume that you have already done this. I have never seen any of these, not even a photo.

There may be something in the following, but you have probably seen these already.  

https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/index.html

https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Colour_Darkroom/Early_Agfa.html

https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Colour_Darkroom/Early_Gevaert.html

https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Paterson/Developing_Tanks/Tank_History.html

William