M11 AWG Magenta

[FrankL]

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Hello,
Just back from a trip where we had three cameras (X1DII, A7RIII, M11), I came across (in LR) the problem of the M11's AWB drift toward magenta, which is obvious and very annoying for these photos intended for making films combining photos from other cameras and videos.
I also changed MacBooks and imported the files in Adobe color space without much thought.
Which color space would be preferable? (the camera profile, Adobe, etc.)
1) Since I've already imported and classified the 3,000 photos, if the recommendation was for a space other than Adobe, is it possible to modify it after importing?
2) What would be the effect of using an import profile targeted for the M11 that would neutralize this magenta drift?
Thanks in advance for your experiences.

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[jaapv]

Colourspace is totally irrelevant for colour balance. Just create an import profile to eliminate the cast and work in Adobe RGB.  Export in the colour space relevant for your destination.
An import profile is something completely different from a colourspace. 
 

https://photoshop-tutorial.org/lightroom/color-correction/

https://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/phscs2ip_colspace.pdf

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-spaces.htm

https://mikkolagerstedt.com/blog/how-to-create-and-use-color-profiles-lightroom-and-camera-raw

https://pluginswirl.com/free-color-profiles-camera-raw/

 

[LeicaGuyUK]

I`ll be honest. With the recent updates in lightroom and the latest M11 firmware i have noticed less magenta shifting in my images than previously. I still apply some profiles that i have formed over the months to dial in what i like but it seems to require less tweaking that from when i first got the camera.

 

[Yugen]

I dreading the Magenta shift on my brand new M11-P, so as soon as I got the package yesterday I went out shooting. Was very surprised to see that there was hardly any. 
My M11-P shows a production date of 25 June this year. I wonder if the newer batches are calibrated, out of the box it had the latest firmware

[jaapv]

The perception of any colour cast -or not-   is a very personal thing. 

[M11 for me]

We could read in other threads that cameras that have been serviced because of that "issue" will get a new AWB setting by Leica that will "eliminate" the magenta cast. On the other hand it seems Leica will not change AWB as a new standard by giving us a respective firmware version.

[Jox]

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On 7/11/2025 at 1:36 AM, jaapv said:

The perception of any colour cast -or not-   is a very personal thing. 

In my case, I'm comparing it with other cameras, including a Hasselblad H, X1D, and X2D, as well as an A7, which are all very accurate and consistent.
The M11'magenta shift is obvious, but it's true: it varies in magnitude depending on the photo, which doesn't make it easy to correct the difference in batches...

[sdk]

Adobe Lightroom uses the ProPhoto RGB as its working color space. It uses a camera profile from each camera to import colors into the working color space. In the case of a Leica M11 it will use the embedded camera profile from Leica which is generic to the series. The camera profile is an input color profile that maps out the camera sensor colors that are then interpolated into the ProPhoto color space for editing. This may not be optimum for every individual camera, or it may be fine for your camera and your vision. As JAAPV said, color perception in people is individual too, idiosyncratic to your eyes and brain. 

If you want color to match one camera with other cameras it's best to use a camera profiling system like Calibrite's Color Checker Passport, and the plugin for the Color Checker DNG to profile all your individual cameras. You shoot a raw image of the Passport target (and you can use two different images taken in different light light, such as tungsten and direct sunlight), then use the DNG(s) (or convert to DNG for other brands like Nikon, Canon, etc.) and the LR plugin to make camera specific profiles, then restart LR and enable the new profiles. These will get all your cameras to render color in a pretty neutral way in LR. That is all the primary and secondary colors and color balance will be rendered very similar between cameras you use, though you will still want to tweak color balance to match your vision. You can set up import presets to apply the camera-specific profile for new images from each camera, or you can apply to old images from each camera. 

Edited July 16 by sdk

[FrankL]

This is very interesting, thank you very much for this suggestion, which seems to provide a real solution to the initial question.
I'm familiar with the ColorChecker Passport because I use it for reproducing paintings with Hasselblad cameras in Phocus, where it's extremely simple, fast, and effective.
However, I tried it in LR quite a while ago and got discouraged before finally getting there; it was also for reproducing paintings during a period when I didn't have a Hasselblad.
What you're suggesting is indeed another use for the ColorChecker Passport in LR, aimed at obtaining consistent colorimetric visualizations between cameras from different manufacturers, and for photos with varied themes, which is exactly what I'm looking for
I'm not sure how to install the plug-in, but I'll look into it... and try to use it with your informations

[jgeenen]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Jox:

which doesn't make it easy to correct the difference in batches...

Just try it! Although I absolutely agree - the magenta shift is not noticeable in all images - the correction does not harm either. My experience is that in 80% of the images where I don‘t recognize a magenta tint, I won’t recognize a green tint. And 80% isn’t a bad success rate, is it? Of course, your mileage may vary.

i am meanwhile convinced that the Magenta tint is mainly a DNG calibration issue baked into the (static) parametrisation engineered by Leica (which is applied to each and every image) and then used by the camera internal JPG engine as well as to the base parameters in the DNG file that are executed by the majority of RAW converters on the market. No WB failure, no AWB issue, no dependency on lightsources, no color space conversion drama.

that could explain why RAW converters like DXO behave differently and Leica is able to correct the calibration on individual demand but not as part of the standard firmware update mechanism.

 

[FrankL]

This is another very interesting and complementary detail. Thank you very much. It encourages me to ask my regular supplier for a stop in Wezlar to see this!
Note that this store represents two brands: Leica and Hasselblad... which is convenient for me!

[Jox]

I did a little test: the "same" photo with
M11/35F2apo and
X1DII/XCD38v
all in manual, AWG 5500K, toning at +10 for the X1D (not visible on the M).
Imported the M directly into LR as "copy", "camera settings" preference.
Imported the X1D into Phocus then synchronized in LR.
The M11 photo has a slight excess of magenta, slight (which could be tolerated if you don't pay attention and if you don't have any comparative elements) but undeniable. But there's one thing that surprises me and I'd really like to understand:
LR opens the M11 photo at 5800K +29
Phocus opens the X1DII photo at 5968K +31, and LR (after synchronization) at 5750 +28
I imagined that both programs would have opened photos taken in manual AWG at their programmed value in the cameras, i.e. 5500K!

[marchyman]

19 hours ago, FrankL said:

I'm not sure how to install the plug-in, but I'll look into it...

Using the plug-in is one of two methods to create a camera profile.  You can download the colorchecker camera calibration app and use it to generate the profile.  I've used both methods.  I don't recall one being easier/better than the other.  The app looks like this:

 

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[Jox]

Mistake : Phocus opens the X1DII photo at 5500K +10, and LR (after synchronization) at 5300 +8

[Jox]

Thank you very much, I'll try all of this.

During my little experimentation today, I noticed that Phocus opens images with the camera's WB values, while LR modifies them. There must be an explanation that eludes me at the moment...

[FrankL]

Well, fortunately, Phocus/Blad respect a chosen balance, especially for studios where lighting values are often known and preset on the cameras. This doesn't prevent subsequent corrections, but it's nice to start with a known, faithful, and reproducible setting.
- Isn't there a way to force LR to respect the cameras' WB settings?
- Does Capture-One respect them?

[jaapv]

You can modify the colour balance in LR and if wished save as a profile. However LR does offer. As Shot. Unless you shoot JPG which is not the optimal idea for Leica cameras in general. 

[nthomas]

Would like to know if there's any this kind of color issue on the new M11 GBP version? Since the GBP version is made from the original M11 body, will they still produce new M11 body right now? Otherwise would they just use the old in stock M11 bodies and repaint it?

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[elmars]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Jox:

I did a little test: the "same" photo with
M11/35F2apo and
X1DII/XCD38v
all in manual, AWG 5500K, toning at +10 for the X1D (not visible on the M).
Imported the M directly into LR as "copy", "camera settings" preference.
Imported the X1D into Phocus then synchronized in LR.
The M11 photo has a slight excess of magenta, slight (which could be tolerated if you don't pay attention and if you don't have any comparative elements) but undeniable. But there's one thing that surprises me and I'd really like to understand:
LR opens the M11 photo at 5800K +29
Phocus opens the X1DII photo at 5968K +31, and LR (after synchronization) at 5750 +28
I imagined that both programs would have opened photos taken in manual AWG at their programmed value in the cameras, i.e. 5500K!

As far as I have understood from other discussions here in the forum, the color temperature is not saved directly in the RAW file, but only indirectly and then calculated by the RAW converter. That's why every RAW converter shows a different color temperature and the same converter shows different color temperatures for different cameras, even though the same color temperature was set there.

[jgeenen]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb elmars:

the color temperature is not saved directly in the RAW file

The DNG file specification explains this (see https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/digital-negative.html) in more technical detail.

The color temperature is just a notation that is easily human readable, but how this translates to color conversion, is defined by the camera manufacturer and baked into color calibration data.

There is not even a standardized EXIF tag for color temperature. While we can expect from manufacturer tools like Phocus to be able to retrieve all information from the RAW files, it is not mysterious that Adobe tools don't. (In fact, even if camera raw did know the precise value, the raw converter would not display it, since it has to maintain a consistent relationship between the color rendering of the image and the position of a slider in the user interface. Same is true for the tint sliders - all highly manufacturer dependent implementations.

How does Adobe camera raw then "respect the camera's WB settings"? Well, it uses the RAW color calibration matrix written by the camera to generate the color tones. It then recalculates the WB slider settings. As long as you set WB in camera raw to "as shot" (and do not modify the other color sliders - and there are many ...) you can expect camera raw not to manipulate  the manufacturer intended white balance.

 

Edited July 18 by jgeenen