From M10 to M11: am I overthinking the shutter lag? or the bump in picture quality?

[Jan_t]

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I've had my M10 since it was released and I'm thinking about upgrading to 2nd hand M11 (there are some nice deals around nowadays). Main reasons would be: 1) newer & better sensor 2) USB-C for charging 3) will hold value longer compared to the M10 (making it easier to upgrade to the MXX in the future).

I've been reading reviews and I noticed many folks mention the new metering using the sensor (instead of a dedicated sensor like the M10). The result seems to be that the M11 acts like it's in live view all the time. On my M10 I noticed that there is delay between pressing the shutter button & taking the picture when the camera is in live view. Is the delay as noticable on the M11? For the folks that had an M10: does it annoy you?

Also, will the picture quality be noticable better? I absolutely love my M10 pictures, but the sensor is of course 8 years old, so the M11 sensor is more recent so more capable?

Anything else I need to be aware of?

Thanks!

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[jaapv]

I still take more than satisfying photos with my 2009 M9 and even 2005 DMR.  Yes there is an increase in IQ over the years, resolution and dynamic range mainly. Does it improve your photography?  That is not a given. Especially high resolution is more sorrow than joy in my opinion, unless your photographic specialization demands it. Or if you display all your images at 100%. My walls won’t take that size of print.
In my book it is marketing by numbers for the  majority of hobby photographers, which is the most lucrative market segment. 

If one is happy with the present results there is absolutely no incentive to upgrade as there is every chance that you (and me and nearly everyone) are using your present gear well  below its full capability. The M10 is the ultimate M in my view. Money would be far better spent on lenses. Now there is an opportunity to extend your photography. 

[Jeff S]

What Jaap said, though in fairness, the M11 can be used at 18 or 36MP, while 60MP can also allow for cropping, not just large prints.  That’s the marketing behind the Q system.

I took an intermediate route, landing on the M10-R and M10 Monochrom, each having an entirely different sensor from the M10, based on the S3 sensor architecture. It has several enhancements beyond simple MP (40.89).  Are my pics better? Likely not, although I do have more flexibility in shooting and in print. Mostly I like their robust build quality, quietness and consistent controls and operation between the two cameras.  

I have zero interest in the M11 platform.

Edited June 28 by Jeff S

[pedaes]

1 hour ago, Jan_t said:

will the picture quality be noticable better

No. But you do get some options and there are small improvements that add up.I am pleased I made the move, but have kept the M10 as I think it may prove to be THE digital M.

Find Jono's review where he goes into detail on above and also improvement on the 'R' (sorry, don't have time to search for you right now).

If you like shooting at f1.4> the 1/4000th shutter speed is great.

Edited June 28 by pedaes

[maxpower]

If you love your M10 pictures you probably don't have any issues with the sensor being "8 years old". We've been brainwashed into thinking we need the latest and greatest of everything in todays world, but we really don't. Sure, on paper the sensor is better, but if you are happy with the results you are getting now what are you hoping to achieve by upgrading? 

I should add that there's also a lot of people who aren't happy with the M11 sensor calibration (you can find many discussions about the "magenta cast"), so depending on your taste you might be less happy with the results or need to put more work into editing - but I don't know your current workflow and whether or not that is an issue. 

Edited June 28 by maxpower

[pgh]

1 hour ago, Jan_t said:

I've had my M10 since it was released and I'm thinking about upgrading to 2nd hand M11 (there are some nice deals around nowadays). Main reasons would be: 1) newer & better sensor 2) USB-C for charging 3) will hold value longer compared to the M10 (making it easier to upgrade to the MXX in the future).

I've been reading reviews and I noticed many folks mention the new metering using the sensor (instead of a dedicated sensor like the M10). The result seems to be that the M11 acts like it's in live view all the time. On my M10 I noticed that there is delay between pressing the shutter button & taking the picture when the camera is in live view. Is the delay as noticable on the M11? For the folks that had an M10: does it annoy you?

Also, will the picture quality be noticable better? I absolutely love my M10 pictures, but the sensor is of course 8 years old, so the M11 sensor is more recent so more capable?

Anything else I need to be aware of?

Thanks!

Why not just put extra cash in a high yield savings so when you see a camera actually worth upgrading for you can sell your M10 plus whatever you have saved, which will probably be more than whatever the M11 is worth at that point. I had the choice again few months ago and got a back up M10. 

For me, nothing about the m11 has compelled me to upgrade. The newer sensor is better in some measures but also a compromise in others.

The age of the sensor of the M10 is basically irrelevant - the output is what matters and if it’s good output for your purposes today that’s all that counts. 

[leicarox]

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I find they're all good, just different. Some of my favorite shots are from the M9. There's a bit of a retro feel to the images and I don't mind the resolution. Often you can up-res using AI if you need to. Unless there's something else like battery life, highlight clipping or the colors that you're not happy with I'm not sure the M11 would be really warranted? I'd rent one for a few days and do a shootout. 

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

What Jaap said, though in fairness, the M11 can be used at 18 or 36MP, while 60MP can also allow for cropping, not just large prints.  That’s the marketing behind the Q system.

I took an intermediate route, landing on the M10-R and M10 Monochrom, each having an entirely different sensor from the M10, based on the S3 sensor architecture. It has several enhancements beyond simple MP (40.89).  Are my pics better? Likely not, although I do have more flexibility in shooting and in print. Mostly I like their robust build quality, quietness and consistent controls and operation between the two cameras.  

I have zero interest in the M11 platform.

Reducing the resolution digitally will not mitigate the drawbacks of a high resolution sensor as they are not caused by the number of pixels ( except storage space) but by the minuscule pixel size. 

[Smogg]

2 hours ago, Jan_t said:

I've had my M10 since it was released and I'm thinking about upgrading to 2nd hand M11 (there are some nice deals around nowadays). Main reasons would be: 1) newer & better sensor 2) USB-C for charging 3) will hold value longer compared to the M10 (making it easier to upgrade to the MXX in the future).

I've been reading reviews and I noticed many folks mention the new metering using the sensor (instead of a dedicated sensor like the M10). The result seems to be that the M11 acts like it's in live view all the time. On my M10 I noticed that there is delay between pressing the shutter button & taking the picture when the camera is in live view. Is the delay as noticable on the M11? For the folks that had an M10: does it annoy you?

Also, will the picture quality be noticable better? I absolutely love my M10 pictures, but the sensor is of course 8 years old, so the M11 sensor is more recent so more capable?

Anything else I need to be aware of?

Thanks!

The delay on the M11 in liveview mode is roughly equivalent to half a step of a walking person. Therefore, you should press the shutter button at the wrong phase of the step to get a normal picture.

[Lee S]

M10 to M11 owner here.

Pictures aren’t better and if you can take advantage of the extra resolution depends on what lenses you use.

 

I do find noise and dynamic range much better.

Can’t say I notice a difference in shutter lag. 

 

 

[Lee S]

1 hour ago, Smogg said:

The delay on the M11 in liveview mode is roughly equivalent to half a step of a walking person. Therefore, you should press the shutter button at the wrong phase of the step to get a normal picture.

Half a step? Average person walks 120 steps a minute, half a step is 0.25s.

Surely delay can’t be that long, how does it compare to non live view cameras?

[Stuart Richardson]

There is a long thread on it here: 

TLDR, 50-125ms for the M11, 12ms for the M7. 

Edited June 28 by Stuart Richardson

[Smudgerer]

3 hours ago, Jan_t said:

I've had my M10 since it was released and I'm thinking about upgrading to 2nd hand M11 (there are some nice deals around nowadays). Main reasons would be: 1) newer & better sensor 2) USB-C for charging 3) will hold value longer compared to the M10 (making it easier to upgrade to the MXX in the future).

I've been reading reviews and I noticed many folks mention the new metering using the sensor (instead of a dedicated sensor like the M10). The result seems to be that the M11 acts like it's in live view all the time. On my M10 I noticed that there is delay between pressing the shutter button & taking the picture when the camera is in live view. Is the delay as noticable on the M11? For the folks that had an M10: does it annoy you?

Also, will the picture quality be noticable better? I absolutely love my M10 pictures, but the sensor is of course 8 years old, so the M11 sensor is more recent so more capable?

Anything else I need to be aware of?

Thanks!

I "upgraded" to the M11 series late last year, first to a M11-D then added the M11-M earlier this year trading in my M10-R and a M10-M, I do not regret the move albeit being one if asked earlier in 2023 or 2024 I would have, did, say that I was well content with the M10 series cameras I owned then and saw no reason ever to step up to the M11. Such is life in the fickle Leicaverse........ 

To answer your questions from my perspective:

1/ Looking back on my M10-R and M10-M files and comparing with the M11's files I really do not see a great deal of difference or improvement. However disliking using large files for no reason I like being able to take advantage of the M11's three available resolutions, 90% of the time both of my M11's are set to the 18mp choice, that gives me the "look" I like and produces far more manageable files for my 7 year old Macs to chew on..

2/ USB charging and battery life is a huge positive in my use of the M11's, it's great to be able to re-charge anywhere at anytime and the battery life is probably double that of the M10 series. Big plus.

3/ Hold value? Who knows? I have never bought any camera, any system on those possible merits, the camera is a tool use it until you outgrow it then sell or trade it up by all means. Leica's however do hold their value more so than any other marque I believe.

Metering is noticeably better, I like too the Highlight weighted metering option and use that exclusively.

I also very much like the lighter weight of the M11 series black finish cameras, it's a noticable improvement in my book.

Coming from the M10 series I have not been troubled in anyway regarding any difference in shutter operation, I also never use the M11, or any other Leica M series, in Live View, I wouldn't shoot with the camera as if it was an iPhone......So no, no worries with the operation of the M11's shutter release.

Will your images be better with the M11 series? Probably not noticeably so, it depends on what and how you photograph. As I said I like the 3x resolutions with the M11's, but I only use the lowest one, 18mp and still print, ( I photograph to print not to post to the web or show on screens ), up to and including A1 size prints with always some cropping for the final picture and at 18mp the M11 still delivers excellent printed results.........BUT then so did the M10 series too, in fact I kept my M10-P from trading simply because I liked that camera's 24mp sensor, and still do. I firmly believe that 24mp is the optimum size of sensor for the M series cameras and the one with the 10-P is still a beauty.

Yes your M10's sensor is 8 years old, but there are many here that still use their M8 and M9 series cameras, and swear by the looks that get from them, I still have a M9-M that I will not let go, so there nothing yet to be concerned at regarding the age of your M10 that you say you "love".

Hope this helps.........

[jaapv]

57 minutes ago, Lee S said:

d if you can take advantage of the extra resolution depends on what lenses you use.

Incorrect, I fear:

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Reducing the resolution digitally will not mitigate the drawbacks of a high resolution sensor as they are not caused by the number of pixels ( except storage space) but by the minuscule pixel size. 

Yes, but every new sensor generation brings other technical improvements, needed or not.  The M10-R sensor even changed the shape of the pixels for better performance, and increased light gathering/photons by 10%. 
 

That said, I still have my M9M, which has its own charm, but my M10M is a “better” machine in many ways, including more shooting flexibility. The resulting picture and print quality from either still depends mostly on me. 

[jaapv]

8 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

3/ Hold value? Who knows? I have never bought any camera, any system on those possible merits, the camera is a tool use it until you outgrow it then sell or trade it up by all means. Leica's however do hold their value more so than any other marque I believe.

If we look at the insane prices asked for resensored M9s (something like 4000$!)  I don't think that any sensible prediction can be made.

[Smogg]

1 hour ago, Lee S said:

Half a step? Average person walks 120 steps a minute, half a step is 0.25s.

Surely delay can’t be that long, how does it compare to non live view cameras?

The delay when using Liveview is about 250ms, as you correctly calculated. Check it yourself by asking someone to walk in front of you if you don't believe me. It's something you can get used to, but I prefer to use OVF and continues Hi when shooting people walking to make sure I catch the right phase of their step.

[Stuart Richardson]

55 minutes ago, jaapv said:

If we look at the insane prices asked for resensored M9s (something like 4000$!)  I don't think that any sensible prediction can be made.

I don't think it is totally unknowable. The M9 has a higher value than its age because it is the first and only full frame M with a CCD. It has noticeably different colors from the later generation cameras and the files have a quite noticeably different feel. It also has had its value increase because the sensors started failing fairly quickly and not all cameras were replaced with non-corroding cover glass. Even many cameras that were sent in just had the same corroding glass as a replacement until they found a more durable solution. So fully functioning, upgraded M9s are fairly rare and have a premium...even with that premium they are way less than a new M11. Similarly, the M10R has a lot of value because not many were made in comparison to the M10 and M11, and it is the highest resolution, best ISO example of the M digital bodies with the more classic shutter behavior. There is also a perception of higher reliability. I think the M11 does not look like a candidate to be one of the more valued Ms going down the line, but the M11D, like the M10D, probably will be. Let's be fair, its reputation has not really been fantastic, what with the accusations of freezing, changes to the shutter and magenta cast accusations. Regardless of how important those issues are and whether they have been fully resolved or not, the reputation took a hit. But I do think we can safely say that it will hold meaningful value for a long time. But since it is still a current model the depreciation hit from buying new will be substantial, particularly once there is an M12 available. 

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[Smogg]

8 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Regardless of how important those issues are and whether they have been fully resolved or not, the reputation took a hit. But I do think we can safely say that it will hold meaningful value for a long time. But since it is still a current model the depreciation hit from buying new will be substantial, particularly once there is an M12 available. 

That's assuming the M12 is reliable right from the start...

[costa43]

Regarding your point on financials, I think keeping the M10 is the lowest cost path to upgrading to the M12. It’s price has plateaued and the extra you will stump up for the M11 coupled with the M11 depreciation when the M12 is released will make the difference there. 

Regarding performance. The M11 is better than the M10/M10r on anything that is really measurable but the benefits are nice to haves and not essentials. Just a new toy, though I do like the base ISO of 64 for shooting fast lenses in daylight and the superb battery life.

Your photos will never improve just by upgrading gear of course but buying new stuff is fun. Nothing wrong with that in my book.