Heiland TAS film processor for B&W film

[thebarnman]

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I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this processor?  Looks perfect for getting the same consistent development over and over again.  Looks like it makes processing film a lot easier too.  Problem is, I only speak English and there is a English version, but it's not really well done.  

(From the internet)

The Heiland TAS Inversion Film Processor is a precision device designed to automate the film development process for black and white films. It ensures consistent and reproducible results by enhancing the acutance of negatives¹². The processor is suitable for continuous or semi-stand processing and accepts major brands of development tanks

 

 

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Edited yesterday at 02:49 AM by thebarnman

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[erl]

Heiland is a good brand I believe, but just by looking at the photo illustrations you have posted, I wonder about temperature control. It is important for reliability. If you need/want to develop for extended times, temp drop is a consideration. I sometimes need to develop for 14 min. In my climate during winter, that would be a serious issue.

[Stuart Richardson]

There is nothing wrong with the machine per se, but if you are going to automate film processing, I would suggest you look into rotary processing instead. The main reason is that you can use dramatically fewer chemicals. This means it is better for the environment and cheaper. The main "loss" is that you need more or less continuous agitation. The advantage of the Heiland is that you can do stand or semi stand processing, but in running a lab for 15 years, I don't think it is all that important. The chemistry issue is a big one. For example, to process ten sheets of 4x5, the minimum chemical requirement in the Jobo Expert drum is 210mL. Unless you have a potent chemical, that is probably not enough, but in a practical sense, you can use about 500mL and be fine, while even doing 8 sheets in an inversion system like this with a Jobo 2500 Multitank tank would use almost 3 liters. There are tons of Jobo processors out there if you want to add the water bath and especially the lift. I ran my small darkroom's film processing for almost fifteen years with a Jobo CPP2. It is still work, but I promise, it is a lot easier. 

Another "problem" with the Heiland machine is that it is automating the part that is not particularly hard. True film processing automation, like the Jobo ATL machines are really worth it if you are a lab or going through a ton of film. Otherwise I think it is mainly the pouring chemicals in and out that is more tedious. A regular Jobo with a lift can help with that enormously, and I think that is more valuable than this machine that just does the agitation. Don't get me wrong, it is better than nothing, but it is also not such a big burden if you are processing film only occasionally. If that is the case, I would look for a roller base instead, just for the chemical savings while doing the same thing.

[250swb]

Given photographers have gotten by all this time without needing a machine to invert the tank I think you can safely say it's squarely aimed at absolute beginners to feed on their high levels of anxiety. Unless you can't count 'one inversion, two inversion' or agitate the film for ten seconds on the minute it's absolutely barmy. Anxiety about processing films goes away pretty quickly, but that machine will be sat at the back of a cupboard for years and years from the day you realise film developing does embrace a level of intuition that comes with experience. The most inconsistent thing about using film is exposing the negative, not developing it.

[BernardC]

Automated processors provide a level of precision and consistency that is higher than required for black and white processing. They can still make sense if they solve an issue/limitation that is specific to you; and they very much make sense in a high-volume lab environment.

The key to successful home processing in B&W is to choose a processing temperature that is close to room temperature, and a time that is long enough so that an extra 5 or 10 seconds doesn't make a noticeable difference. Anything over 6 minutes for the developer should be fine. The other steps (pre-soak if you choose to use it, stop bath, fixer, wash, etc.) have wider tolerances. You need to go past a minimum time for fix and wash, but extending these steps won't hurt your negs, within reason.

Colour is different because the temperatures are higher, and the times are shorter. Even then, many photographers now use cheap "sous-vide" kitchen appliances to keep temperatures steady.

[Stuart Richardson]

I agree with Steve and Bernard. In black and white timing and consistent agitation are not likely to be any kind of hurdle unless you are wildly different each time you process. If that is what you are worried about, it is not an issue unless you do a cocktail shaker one day and a gentle inversion the next. The most important things to be consistent about are temperature, dilution and time. If you are not sloppy with your measurements and timing, your black and white should be very consistent (assuming your exposures are). The best source of information in most cases are the datasheets supplied by the film companies. Kodak's in particular are excellent. Their Xtol datasheet is a goldmine of information. They will also give you times for room temperatures a bit colder and a bitter warmer than 20C/68F. There are formulas for adjusting, but generally it is best to keep it around 20C. This is more about process speed than anything else. 

Process timing and temperature are much more important for color developing, however. In C41 it is mostly because development is so short, and in E6/CR56 it is because development is driving both exposure level and color formation. Those processes require very careful temperature and timing. Neither of them would be suited to this system unless you put it in a temperature controlled 100F degree room.

[Stuart Richardson]

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2 hours ago, 250swb said:

Given photographers have gotten by all this time without needing a machine to invert the tank I think you can safely say it's squarely aimed at absolute beginners to feed on their high levels of anxiety. Unless you can't count 'one inversion, two inversion' or agitate the film for ten seconds on the minute it's absolutely barmy. Anxiety about processing films goes away pretty quickly, but that machine will be sat at the back of a cupboard for years and years from the day you realise film developing does embrace a level of intuition that comes with experience. The most inconsistent thing about using film is exposing the negative, not developing it.

In fairness to Heiland, if your process times are long (rodinal at high dilutions etc), it can be nice to just leave the tank while it does its 20 minute thing, rather than sitting there and agitating every minute. But still, I think if this is your issue, a Jobo is going to make things that much easier. 

[Stuart Richardson]

Btw, my friend just recently came to the studio and showed me one of these, and it was quite impressive. I think it is a better solution, personally. The nice thing about it as well, is that it will take larger tanks with less chemistry, and it has process timing built in as well. It is also cheaper, I believe. The pictures are just renderings, but it was well made. The bars on the bottom are aluminum, and the screen interface was a black and white multipixel digital screen with icons for different tank types etc. It is clearly DIY, but DIY from someone who knows what they are doing. It was pretty cool, to be honest. I will stick my labs ATL 2200 though, lol.

https://aurafd.company.site/

 

Edited 14 hours ago by Stuart Richardson

[FrozenInTime]

Not all tank, film, development and agitation combinations are touchy, but:

Bromide drag, localised exhaustion, surge marks, and streaking are effects seen through insufficient, irregular or excessive agitation. Pre-soaking can change the grain edge acuity.  Short development times or pushing with extended times, stand or semi-stand and weak development regimes, further amplifies the chances of uneven negatives.

These are combatted with processor controlled tank rotation and/or inversion. 

I've seen all over the years, with failings corrected, trained out with diligence, rote and muscle memory, but nevertheless it is too easy to slip up, so I do now have a Heiland SAT shipping to me from Germany. 

For 20'C B&W the room thermostat should hold temperature.  

For those considering colour processes, the cost of a CPE-3 with lift is now similar, ( I stupidly gave away my CPE-2 lift some twenty years ago, before a house move; it took up a lot of space ).

Only time will tell if the TAS was a worthwhile investment.

[FrozenInTime]

12 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Btw, my friend just recently came to the studio and showed me one of these, and it was quite impressive. I think it is a better solution, personally. The nice thing about it as well, is that it will take larger tanks with less chemistry, and it has process timing built in as well. It is also cheaper, I believe. The pictures are just renderings, but it was well made. The bars on the bottom are aluminum, and the screen interface was a black and white multipixel digital screen with icons for different tank types etc. It is clearly DIY, but DIY from someone who knows what they are doing. It was pretty cool, to be honest. I will stick my labs ATL 2200 though, lol.

https://aurafd.company.site/

 

See also the AGO and Jobo Silver base competition for tank rotators.

https://vintagevisual.eu/product/ago-film-processor/

https://www.jobo.com/en/analogue/4044t-jobo-silverbase?ecms_lang=EN

[Stuart Richardson]

53 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

See also the AGO and Jobo Silver base competition for tank rotators.

https://vintagevisual.eu/product/ago-film-processor/

https://www.jobo.com/en/analogue/4044t-jobo-silverbase?ecms_lang=EN

Yes, those are there, but both are more expensive and more limited. The Jobo literally just has an off and on and only works with 1500 tanks and the 2520, while the ago only works with Paterson tanks, despite the cool programming. I think what is cool about the one I showed was that it will seemingly work with any tank you put on the roller base, and you can control the variables like timing, RPM of rotation and so on. But anyway, it is great that there are multiple options. Personally, if you have the space, I recommend a Jobo processor with a lift. Having the circulating bath, temperature control, and easy pouring and dispensing is worth the extra expense and space if you are going to be processing a lot of film. They are also pretty reliable. I bought a new CPP2 in 2009 and used it to process thousands of rolls with only minimal maintenance (like swapping the plug on the unused tank outlet, the plastic gear spindles and the bases etc). It is also, astonishingly, a company that is still functioning and is there to provide spares and repairs if necessary.

[250swb]

5 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

In fairness to Heiland, if your process times are long (rodinal at high dilutions etc), it can be nice to just leave the tank while it does its 20 minute thing, rather than sitting there and agitating every minute. But still, I think if this is your issue, a Jobo is going to make things that much easier. 

I think the reality is that people don't shoot as much film as before, so spending £600 on a film agitator device to replace wrist action means you have £600 less to spend on film. And if you ever need to develop five films and not just one just buy a bigger tank to start with. And developing five films in one go does concentrate the mind and makes it seem less of a boring chore. But if your photography is so boring to you why do it if twenty minutes extended development time is such a crisis? The argument for extended development times is moot, if you want to go away and read the newspaper set the alarm on your phone to wake you up.

[erl]

The above varied opinions really just reinforces the variability of our collective processing techniques/habits. I am lucky because in a time when I needed to efficiently put through large volumes of both B&W and colour film processes, the JOBO was the only sensible solution. Commonly I would, in one batch, process up to 10 rolls of 120 film in one process. Time was of the essence. Now I nearly always only process one roll of any format at a time, but I do appreciate the fact that leaving it to the machine, I can count on absolute consistency without mindlessly standing there agitating by hand for however long. Instead, I walk the dog, or have lunch, or pester you lot here on the Forum. When I am finished, so is the film. I do enjoy applying my time to such things as may benefit from personal input and 'creativity'. My days of standing mindlessly over a development tank are over. Been there. Done that. My clever darkroom 'monkey' does it better than I.

[david strachan]

I liked the

 Jobo too, doing 5 films at a time.

Set in a rolling cradle i could use quite low developer concentrations at very low temperatures...ambient winter temps in Adelaide.

 

Make sure I'd done the time-temp curves properly and i could come back 20-25 minutes later.

...

[Stuart Richardson]

3 hours ago, 250swb said:

I think the reality is that people don't shoot as much film as before, so spending £600 on a film agitator device to replace wrist action means you have £600 less to spend on film. And if you ever need to develop five films and not just one just buy a bigger tank to start with. And developing five films in one go does concentrate the mind and makes it seem less of a boring chore. But if your photography is so boring to you why do it if twenty minutes extended development time is such a crisis? The argument for extended development times is moot, if you want to go away and read the newspaper set the alarm on your phone to wake you up.

I think there are many photographers who love film and film cameras who find processing a chore and do not have a convenient or high quality option for having others do it for them. I agree about the Heiland, it does not seem worth it to me. But I could never process all the film I do without my jobos. The ATL in particular is amazing as it is just set it up, press the button and come back in 40 minutes when the film is rinsed and ready for photo flo and drying. In the meantime I can scan the rolls I already processed, print work and so on. I don’t process much for clients these days but even for myself it is a huge time saver, especially for multi format shooters. If I shoot 4x5, 8x10 and 120 on a trip, that is at the very least three processing runs, and far more than that if I also shot color etc. I am sympathetic to any who want to make it a bit easier. But if you are only shooting one or two rolls at a time, then of course any automatic processor is probably a bit of an overkill. 

[erl]

38 minutes ago, david strachan said:

I liked the

 Jobo too, doing 5 films at a time.

Set in a rolling cradle i could use quite low developer concentrations at very low temperatures...ambient winter temps in Adelaide.

 

Make sure I'd done the time-temp curves properly and i could come back 20-25 minutes later.

...

I am spoilt with my JOBO AutoLab 1500. It controls temperature, development time and selects programs for colour or B&W and has a back up battery in case of power failure, which would be fatal for film processing. In terms of quality of process, IMO, it far exceeds the end result over hand agitation etc. simply because of absolute consistency. As far as grain control is concerned, I have never found rotary processing to be visibly worse than intermittent agitation. I think other fators do come into play here. I have just discovered the JOBO B&W developer, which is specifically designed for continuous rotation. My early opinion is that it is a significant improvement over what I did previously. Things only get better.

As mentioned by previous posters, the chemistry saving in a rotary processor is considerable, important for colour work. Not really an issue for B&W. The other thing not mentioned is that  rotary processors are ideal for 'One Shot' processing which has to be superior to reusing developer which is always a guessing game. 

Switching from Patterson Tanks (which I still have) to JOBO system reduced my chem use from 500ml/35mm film to 175mm/35mm film. A considerable saving for colour. B&W is still cheap enough to not care.