Buying my first Leica

[o2mpx]

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After buying a used M9 as my first, have run through M240, M262, M10 and now M10-R. I would select the M10-R (or M10) as it’s the most mature, and the removal bottom represents a traceable design all the way back to the first analog models. 

Despite many saying 24mp is more than enough, as landscapes are all I shoot, often with cropping, looking to add a M11-P(or 12?) to the kit. Pass on the M11 as it seems within this forum at least, freezing and other issues like the color cast tend to be mentioned with M11 and less with M11-P variants. 

For the camera body, defining what photography type would be the focus - street, people, landscapes - and for my use case of landscapes, would go for highest resolution and more neutral newer production lens models, vs the older or more classic (and reissue) lenses.

 

[goks]

I narrowed down my search to M10 and M10-R thanks to all these posts in this thread. Is resolution a really big issue? M10 is way cheaper than M10-R and I wonder if it's worth paying an extra grand for it. 

[leicameech]

The 262 is great -- it's a 240 without live view or video, essentially the same sensor. Keep in mind how much of what you can see in the viewfinder your lens will be capturing. A 28 = everything you can see in the finder will be in the frame. 35, slightly less. 50 even less (my favorite focal length and lens to shoot on an M is a 50 -- I like the ratio of what you can see inside/outside of the frame at the same time when looking through the finder). 

As others have stated, which to go for first depends on the kind of investment you're looking to make. If you're certain you want the rangefinder experience and the learning curve that comes with it (and satisfaction from making pictures having done most/all of the work yourself), then get the best gear you can afford. If you can swing an M11, do. If not, an M10-R or any M10 series are fantastic. 240 also good, but depending on how much less expensive than an M10 it is, the M10 is more responsive, slimmer, and with a better menu system (but worse battery capacity). M8 isn't full frame and M9 (which shares same battery as M8) is loud, slow, and has poor battery life. 

As for lenses, same thing -- there are great Voigtlander and Zeiss M mount lenses, and it could be worthwhile to get one (or multiple) of those to see what focal lengths you enjoy (and enjoy shooting on an M, which might be different), and then spend the big(ger) bucks on the Leica lens. If 35 is your preferred focal length, for example, and you've enjoyed shooting a 35 Voigtlander Nokton f/1.4, then you might consider the Leica 35 Lux or Steel Rim. Are Leica lenses always head and shoulders better than other M mount lenses? No. Will you want the Leica lens? Probably. I did. I have a 28 Cron, 35 Lux ASPH and 50 Lux ASPH. All fantastic. 

I've tried the 35 Distagon Zeiss f/1.4. Amazing lens. As is commonly said, it's large for a 35 f/1.4. The 35 Lux is not as sharp (splitting hairs, but facts are facts), but it's smaller, ergonomically superior (in my opinion), and doesn't have a silver steel rim like the Zeiss. It also comes with a lens hood (previous version) or has an integrated one (current version). But it's more than 2x the price of the Zeiss. These rabbit holes go deep -- should I spend more money, am I seeing the benefit, googling "Leica killer" alternatives... If you want the real thing, get the real thing. You don't need a Leica lens to get the rangefinder experience, but there's something to be said for having a Leica lens on a Leica camera. 

Regardless of which M and lens(es) you go with, the M is a personal camera. Images made with it, even if you're shooting the sharpest, most precise modern M lenses available, take more effort to make than with AF cameras. The experience of photographing with an M is different than others and much more grounded, deliberate, frustrating, methodical, disappointing, satisfying... there are ups and downs. If you want to be involved in the process of making an image -- you will certainly be getting that with an M. Maybe it's just me, but I remember what I was doing, or if I took one frame or many, looking back at photos I've shot with my M cameras. A few extra seconds of engagement makes a difference in process of photographing and makes getting keepers more meaningful.

Edited June 23 by leicameech

[costa43]

I think buy ‘cheap’ and bank the change for the next move once/if you like the M is a smart move. The M11 is a great camera but the rangefinder shooting experience with an M240 or M10 is pretty much the same and the prices on those have plateaued should you find it is not for you and you want your cash back. Voigtlander/Zeiss/Light Lens Lab/Thypoch amongst others have some nice options at reasonable cost at all the popular focal lengths. You can then make your 2nd move from a position of some experience. 

[goks]

Thank you all!

Is there a considerable difference between M10 vs M10P?

[costa43]

5 minutes ago, goks said:

Thank you all!

Is there a considerable difference between M10 vs M10P?

Same sensor and body design. The P though has a quieter shutter, a touchscreen, a level gauge (perspective control) and no red dot..

Edited June 23 by costa43

[pgh]

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2 hours ago, goks said:

I narrowed down my search to M10 and M10-R thanks to all these posts in this thread. Is resolution a really big issue? M10 is way cheaper than M10-R and I wonder if it's worth paying an extra grand for it. 

No.

Not unless you have very specific reasons why you know it is an issue. IE you are consistently printing rather large and your prints succeed or fail on the level of fine detail rendering. 

M10 makes a file good enough to print 30” or longer on the long end. 48” even, really, for a well made file. You will see some interpolation if you look at it from 6 inches away, but you won’t if you stand much further away. Very few prints that large are intended to be scrutinized at such a close distance and if you are someone who makes those prints you already know exactly why you need them to be that way. 

The biggest reasons to pay an extra thousand for the M10-R (in my opinion, as so astutely pointed out by another I am just giving my own preferences) is the dampened shutter which makes for a somewhat nicer experience, and then it is marginally better at retaining highlight detail for a given exposure. But with the M10 that’s a limitation you can learn to work within and it’s really not bad in the end. The color from the M10-r is slightly different. Not better or worse, depends on preference. For me it was another reason I kept the 10m. I used to think the highlight thing was a bigger issue than it is, but years of real use have shown me it’s a very marginal issue. The extra resolution is a mixed bag, it also means that the camera needs to be handheld at a shutter speed that’s one stop faster than it would on the m10, and for the m11 that’s roughly 2 stops. Ie whereas you probably reliably shoot a 50mm at 1/60 or 1/90 and get sharp results on the m10, you’ll need 1/90 or 1/125 for the M10R and possibly 1/180 or even 1/250 for the M11, although everyone’s hands are a bit different. 

Edited June 23 by pgh

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, pedaes said:

M11 in first post to M8 now is quite a leap! Although M8 has a 'cropped' sensor it is probably better bet as you would need to be confident M9 had second generation replacement sensor or showed no signs of sensor 'corrosion'. Also remember neither of these cameras have Live View.

There are 100's of images from all cameras on the Forum - start with 'Images from...' threads, but any difference you can see will be minimal and probably down to pp anyway.

Another thing is that you will run into edge and corner problems on the M8 and M9. They can be managed but add a complication for beginners. 
The M240 is a solid camera; the only caveat that it is IR sensitive which may mean that you need a B+W 486 filter in some light conditions to get optimal colour. It may be a bit of a hassle to find a spare battery. 

[sebben]

Others are going to disagree with me but if I boil down my 20 years of shooting the M system and trying pretty much every Leica M lens I would say the strengths of it are the compact 28mm, 35mm and 50mm lenses. (Light weight F2.0, F2.8 or slower lenses) This is where the spontaneity of the system shines.

Everything else starts to become an annoyance with time because of the constant compromises that lead to mis-focused images especially at 60megapixels...

Edited June 24 by sebben

[hjddd]

1 minute ago, sebben said:

其他人可能会不同意我的观点，但如果总结一下我20年来使用M系统拍摄的经验，我会说它的优势在于紧凑的28毫米、35毫米和50毫米镜头。（轻量级的F2.0、F2.8或更慢的镜头）这正是该系统的自发性闪光点所在。

随着时间的推移，其他一切都开始变得令人烦恼，因为不断的妥协导致图像对焦不准，尤其是在 6000 万像素的情况下……

totally agreed。

[goks]

43 minutes ago, sebben said:

Others are going to disagree with me but if I boil down my 20 years of shooting the M system and trying pretty much every Leica M lens I would say the strengths of it are the compact 28mm, 35mm and 50mm lenses. (Light weight F2.0, F2.8 or slower lenses) This is where the spontaneity of the system shines.

Everything else starts to become an annoyance with time because of the constant compromises that lead to mis-focused images especially at 60megapixels...

Thank you @sebben. Is there a sweet spot for the body and lens you would recommend? the body options are m240, m-p 240 and m10 as it will be my first Leica and I rather to invest more money in the lens so that I can still use it when I upgrade the body to perhaps m12 in the future. open to any advice from you since you have been shooting for a long time. let me know if there is better body you would recommend as well. one thing to know is that I don't plan to use my leica for video at all.

Edited June 24 by goks

[goks]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Another thing is that you will run into edge and corner problems on the M8 and M9. They can be managed but add a complication for beginners. 
The M240 is a solid camera; the only caveat that it is IR sensitive which may mean that you need a B+W 486 filter in some light conditions to get optimal colour. It may be a bit of a hassle to find a spare battery. 

does the same problem apply to M-P 240?

[jaapv]

5 minutes ago, goks said:

does the same problem apply to M-P 240?

Which problem? IR ?  It only occurs in light with high IR content and all M cameras will show it to some extent. The 240 series a bit more but not as much as the M8. Often people don’t mind -olive greens and purple blotches on Caucasian skin, sometimes yellow cast in the Tropics at noon, etc. And as said, an IR block filter is a simple solution.

[sebben]

@goks

For me 24 megapixels are fine. I have the Epson 8550 printer so I don't make larger prints than that. I have printed images over years taken on the Leica M8, M9, SL, CL, Leica S 007, Leica M10R and the M10 and the image quality difference at these print sizes are not visible in any meaningful way.

I would look for a Leica M10/M10P, it's a solid platform, compact size, pretty good sensor with a wide usage envelope in terms of ISO performance. A good quality to price ratio in my opinion.

I have really weeded out my lens selection so I only have the 50mm Summicron and the Zeiss ZM 35 2.8. I want to add the 28mm ASPH Elmarit 2.8 lens again at some point because it's the only one I miss out of the M lenses I sold over the years. The most sold lens for the Leica M platform is the 35mm Summicron so I would probably start the journey there. 🤣

As you can see though, once you get the Leica bug its going to be expensive...

 

 

 

 

 

[lykaman]

Before you decide, rent an M11 and a couple of Leica lenses (50mm 28mm) use the gear and decide if it’s for you. Some rental companies also sell gear.. 😎

[Minigill]

I did a 48 hour test drive via Leica for M11, & lens considerable deposit required but worth if it doable, no charge to loan.  They offer either 28 or 35 lens depending on what is avaialble on your chosen date (I decided on arrival on lens) and provide a bag to carry around if needed.  I also requested spare battery.  Yes I got through 2 in a day 😀  No hard sell on return, they check and return deposit straight away.

You can go onto their site and see when its available and book.  Not sure if this works outside UK.

[hillavoider]

37 minutes ago, sebben said:

@goks

For me 24 megapixels are fine. I have the Epson 8550 printer so I don't make larger prints than that. I have printed images over years taken on the Leica M8, M9, SL, CL, Leica S 007, Leica M10R and the M10 and the image quality difference at these print sizes are not visible in any meaningful way.

I would look for a Leica M10/M10P, it's a solid platform, compact size, pretty good sensor with a wide usage envelope in terms of ISO performance. A good quality to price ratio in my opinion.

I have really weeded out my lens selection so I only have the 50mm Summicron and the Zeiss ZM 35 2.8. I want to add the 28mm ASPH Elmarit 2.8 lens again at some point because it's the only one I miss out of the M lenses I sold over the years. The most sold lens for the Leica M platform is the 35mm Summicron so I would probably start the journey there. 🤣

As you can see though, once you get the Leica bug its going to be expensive...

 

 

 

 

 

If i was starting out again i would very highly recommend this advice 

M10 seems to be the sweet spot. 

M11 is better built, very light, but very expensive and not an easy camera to use with 60mp 

get an f2 lens, 28 or 35, zeiss or leica 

and have fun! 

[erl]

Here is some bias you may or may not want! Any camera is only a tool and is only as good as the hands that hold it. So, don't expect the camera, any camera, to make your photography significantly better. The lenses are the real difference in how you capture your images, as driven by your vision. Bluntly put, the camera is simply a box to hold the lens and sensor that record your vision.

Different  cameras are a great source of joy and functionality that we all orgasmicize  over, but I have to declare that my old Leica 111f takes just as good pictures as my Leica M10. Some difference are real in that the physical usability of the M10 is a bit faster than the 111f and focusing is easier with the M10, but some of my best pics still come out of the 111f.

Message: Buy 'down' on the body and select the lens type that you are familiar with. Your photography will not improve just because of it, but your pleasure in photography is in risk of increasing. 😉

[LikameLeica]

10 hours ago, goks said:

Hi everyone! I'm trying to get my first Leica, but I'm not sure how to approach it. I want it to be an M, and I was going to go with the M11, but reading about all the freezing issues has made me worried, especially since I will probably buy it used, so I wouldn’t have the chance to get it checked at a Leica store. Another one I was considering is the M10-R, but it's really hard to find these days. I wanted to ask if you have any recommendations or perhaps a strategy for choosing one's first Leica. Should I go with a cheaper body and a better lens, or vice versa?

 

Thank you, I really appraicfte your help!

Moving from DSLR to a M range finder in my opinion is a BIG change and someone else suggested renting an M11 with a lens and see how you go with the experience.  Once you are convinced that the rangefinder focusing experience and minimalist set-up are good for you, then make the leap into an M camera and lens.  

I initially entered the Leica world via the Leica Q, then went down the path of the SL system (SL to SL2 to SL2-S) because I could use M lenses and also SL lenses.  I love the SL system, but it is essentially going back to DSLR size and I kept dreaming of the M.  

I made the leap when the M11 came out and have not regretted the decision, I did have freeze issues and Leica ended up exchanging my M11 to a M11-P.  I do not have freeze issues now with M11-P and latest FW.  

My SL system now hardly gets used and when I look at my Lightroom metadata the vast majority of my pictures over the last year 5605 out of 8079 photos were with the M11-P.  In terms of lenses, I have found that the M11-P paired with the 35 Summilux FLE is a perfect match.  The cropping ability of the 60MP sensor, makes this an extremely versatile 1 lens set-up.  I also think the additional features of the M11 vs. prior generations M's make it a better experience (programmable buttons including thumb dial, flexible light metering options, hybrid shutter, latest UI experience on Live View, etc) are worth getting the M11-P.  The low light capability of the 1.4 aperture also makes this a very flexible system and in my opinion worth the extra size and costs vs. the 35 Summicron.  Of the 5605 photos taken with my M11-P in last year 4300 were taken with the 35 Summilux.  

My personal opinion is that saving for a M11-P and a 35 Summilux would be a great entry into the M system and would be a great modern set-up that will last you a long time.

All a very personal decision, but these are my experiences and thoughts that hopefully help you in your decision making process.

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Hallo,

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[Kiwimac]

If you’ve never experienced a rangefinder, I’d suggest renting one for a week if you can. 
 

They’re not everybody’s cup of tea, especially those young enough never to have dealt with manual focus and so on.