To update or to change systems?

[Olaf_ZG]

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A question which I am asking myself a bit longer already. Maybe the team can share there pov. A bit of background: I bought into the SL system because of the ability to use m-lenses, first with the original, followed with the SL2 and I added the 2s.

I hardly used the m-lenses, so sold the adapter and have L-mount lenses only on the SL.

My current system:

SL2 plus SL2s, a l-plate, remote, and godox trigger

24-90: great event lens (but I don’t do events anymore)

90-280: for equine photography, but my friend stopped with parcours

pana 100 macro: photographing the garden, but my Q could do this

sigma 85/1.4: ok-ish, but I don’t use it because of the Lux

21apo: great lens

laowe t/s55: just to play around

the SL lux: best portrait lens I owned

my use case for the SL is portraits mainly, and I would love to do long exposure (16+ minutes as well)

What I miss on the SL2 for portraits is a flip screen: so great when camera is on tripod. I tried to fiddle with a ipad, but it just didn’t work for me. The 2:3 format aint great so I need to crop (and mainly I keep the camera in landscape, so I bin quite some mp).

In general I miss on the SL the possibility to crop in 24x65 mode (in camera is so different then in post), a thing Leica easily could do, but don’t want to do (how childish), and the ability for long exposures without the black image afterwards.

The SL3 won’t solve much of my general problems, but I really think the new button layout on the right is great. With your right hand you now can control everything.

So, upgrading might make sense: a bit more mp and better controls. Will sell both 2’s, the sigma and maybe the 90-280 to fund a 90apo, resulting in a slightly reduced set.

Option 2 would be sell it all, buy a x2d with 80, 135 and a wide angle lens. Would the 80 be better then the Lux? I assume color will be great, long exposure no problem at all and the 24x65 is here as well. With current prices may be not a great deal, but for sure, when an update comes, the x2d might go down in price. 
 

Option 3 would be as above, but instead moving to HB, I could buy a S system, but here I am totally unfamiliar with what is offered and what I would need.

I don’t want to buy into GFX, so this we can leave out of the discussion. At current I have a set of older m’s and the q43 as well for daily stuff.

usecase would be solely (studio) portrait and may be some seascapes …

very curious to your replies…

(and yes, maybe I bought to quick into the SL system, but at times I was not sure what I wanted to photograph…)

 

[Einst_Stein]

If I understand right, your main problem is to have flip screen and to shoot 24x65mm, right?

I don't think you can find a solution in digital world. Go sell it and buy a 6x7 or larger format film camera, with waist level finder. 

[pgh]

I use my X2D primarily for portraits and landscapes. That’s where it shines. Rarely use my SL2 now to be honest. I’m not one to pixel peep on lenses - but the Hasselblad ones I think do quite a nice job. Couldn’t say if they can match the APO but I don’t really care. I do find the format, ergonomics, color, very good IBIS (as well as leaf shutter) to be its main advantages - the resolution as well, but that makes less of a difference to me. If I had to pick I’d ditch the SL2 for sure.

But not the m system. That is tougher. 

Edited June 11 by pgh

[LD_50]

If the cost isn’t an issue, I would start by building a new system on paper and that should tell you which is right for you. 

From what you wrote, the SL system doesn’t seem best suited for what you now need. 

[Photoworks]

Your lens investment is significant and it would be nice to keep it.

I got the SL3 when it came out, it has some good improvements, but not sure it is what you are looking for.

the flip screen is ok, but it only goes up. the new button doesn't change much for me, but the menu is a big change and it could use refinement for customization.
To me, the SL2 menu was much faster to use and you had more icons on the quick menu. on the Sl3 touch-screen, the push and hold for more option is slow and unresponsive for some.

Panasonic S1RM2 is a camera that will take all your lenses, Does 65x24 Crop, and screen flip.

I have been using it for the last few months and coming from SL3 it has some positive and some "SONY menu-like" issues. and buttons for everything 

The colors are more intense than a Leica, portraits on the SL just are a bit better out of the camera, but it can be all adjusted in post.

65x24 format in RAW is maintained crop in Adobe, capture one will need to be re-cropped, but you can do it all at once. the JPG out of the camera is still cropped and can be used as a reference.

If you are using M-Lenses, the only maximum performance will be delivered on M cameras and the SL is a close second. everything else is a compromise, even on the Panasonic or Sigma.

Hasselblad has a good camera, but for most of my work, the AF is a bit too slow. it is more like an M camera experience.

If you get tired of holding the Summilux-SL, try the Sigma 50 1.2 it is a great competitor.

[ravinj]

6 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

A question which I am asking myself a bit longer already. Maybe the team can share there pov. A bit of background: I bought into the SL system because of the ability to use m-lenses, first with the original, followed with the SL2 and I added the 2s.

I hardly used the m-lenses, so sold the adapter and have L-mount lenses only on the SL.

My current system:

SL2 plus SL2s, a l-plate, remote, and godox trigger

24-90: great event lens (but I don’t do events anymore)

90-280: for equine photography, but my friend stopped with parcours

pana 100 macro: photographing the garden, but my Q could do this

sigma 85/1.4: ok-ish, but I don’t use it because of the Lux

21apo: great lens

laowe t/s55: just to play around

the SL lux: best portrait lens I owned

my use case for the SL is portraits mainly, and I would love to do long exposure (16+ minutes as well)

What I miss on the SL2 for portraits is a flip screen: so great when camera is on tripod. I tried to fiddle with a ipad, but it just didn’t work for me. The 2:3 format aint great so I need to crop (and mainly I keep the camera in landscape, so I bin quite some mp).

In general I miss on the SL the possibility to crop in 24x65 mode (in camera is so different then in post), a thing Leica easily could do, but don’t want to do (how childish), and the ability for long exposures without the black image afterwards.

The SL3 won’t solve much of my general problems, but I really think the new button layout on the right is great. With your right hand you now can control everything.

So, upgrading might make sense: a bit more mp and better controls. Will sell both 2’s, the sigma and maybe the 90-280 to fund a 90apo, resulting in a slightly reduced set.

Option 2 would be sell it all, buy a x2d with 80, 135 and a wide angle lens. Would the 80 be better then the Lux? I assume color will be great, long exposure no problem at all and the 24x65 is here as well. With current prices may be not a great deal, but for sure, when an update comes, the x2d might go down in price. 
 

Option 3 would be as above, but instead moving to HB, I could buy a S system, but here I am totally unfamiliar with what is offered and what I would need.

I don’t want to buy into GFX, so this we can leave out of the discussion. At current I have a set of older m’s and the q43 as well for daily stuff.

usecase would be solely (studio) portrait and may be some seascapes …

very curious to your replies…

(and yes, maybe I bought to quick into the SL system, but at times I was not sure what I wanted to photograph…)

 

My POV as a hobbyist who shoots static subjects. So fast or slow AF is not a consideration for me. 

I had the SL2 with all of the SL APOs from 35 to 90. Obviously an excellent imaging machine....until I tried a used X1D with the XCD 45 3.5 in 2020. My jaw dropped at the colors and overall "feel" of the image. I also tried the GFX, nice but no cigar.

Today I use the X2D. Q3 at times if needed. All of my SL gear is sold. For me it is about the Hasselbad colors that I find hard to replicate on other camera systems. I am sure a talented person could replicate any color rendering on any camera system. 

I have used XCD 80 that you ask about. I have not used the SL 50 'Lux, so can't compare. But I can say that the XCD 80 produces images that are like fine art paintings. Detailed, but not harsh. It is a heavy lens, not something I would carry around at this age. 

I also have the XCD 135 - a very fine lens and a rare one where the quality does not degrade with the teleconverter. X2D's stellar IBIS means handheld results even with this lens are as good as on a tripod even down to 1/15th second in my hands. 

All in all, your use case of studio portraits and seascapes warrants a closer look at the X2D.

FMForum has deals on used X system come up every now and then. I have bought several XCD lenses on that forum incl the XCD 80 from established sellers with no issues. My X2D was sourced from Europe when it came out and when the US $ was strong....ahhh the good old days. 

[lightsourcekauai]

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I sold all of my SL gear— SL3, SL2, the excellent 21 APO, 35 APO, and 90-280. I purchased into a Medium Format system and really enjoy it. The only thing I (maybe) miss about the SL system is the 21 APO. I took a hit, but felt that it needed to be done. I hesitate to say the Medium Format system that I now use as you stated that you prefer not to use the GFX, but that’s the one. Things I enjoy about a MF system are the new to me 4x3 aspect ratio, and for 65x24 I just turn a dial and the aspect ratio is set in the view finder. It’s fun and challenging to see the frame in those ratios. I also like the compression the format provides and of course, seeing the extreme details in the image is also fun. Although that may be only truly visible on the computer screen. 
I seriously considered the X2D but ultimately chose the Fuji for 3 reasons:

1. Long lens availability for waves and wildlife (250mm and 500mm)

2. AF system for waves and wildlife (so far have only photographed surfers and a few birds, but so far the results are very good).

3. Fear (perhaps unfounded, I readily admit) of lengthy repair times should a repair be necessary (my experience with Leica spooked me). 

All the best.

Lee
 

[hansvons]

10 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

very curious to your replies…

It feels like GAS. Everybody who‘s deep in photography has it here and then. Even I feel it sometimes, and I‘m good at clean shelves, using gear for decades etc. 

I‘m not singing the "stick to what you have and learn to use it" song. You clearly know what you wanted from you gear, and used it for that extensively. Maybe it makes sense for you giving you an overview of what I have and for what I use my photo gear.

I own a twinset of film Ms (M6, M4P—only need one with a meter). These cameras are my workhorses for events (B&W) along with my iPhone (social media). B&W film photography pays into my brand as a Visual Storyteller & Climate/Conservation Communications Strategist and makes my work unique. People love it and I love it, too 😊.

I own 4 M lenses: 35mm ASPH, 35mm Summarit, 35mm Nokton f1/4 SC V2 (90% Steel Rim copy), and a 50mm Summicron V4.

I also use the film Ms for colour landscape work and other subjects that end up in my Substack (see below) or get printed for exhibitions.

For the latter, I own a 44“ fine art printer. In my case a Canon Image Pro 4600, could be from Epsom as well. The printer is my best investment into stills photography on many levels.

I also shoot fashion (sustainable, of course😎) and campaign work on various issues, mostly climate and environment related. This requires digital photography and videography with quick turnaround times and high quality. This is where my SL2-S comes into play. I owned the excellent 24-90 but swapped it for the 35mm APO, which is the best 35mm I ever had, only 7x more costly cine primes are in its league. At f/2 it got tons of character AND sharpness/contrast, making it a unique  modern-day Leica lens interpretation.

Why 35mm? Because the 35mm field of view pays into my image language best and offers consistency, I need to improve myself. Plus my work doesn’t require other focal lengths. In my view, photography, image-making in general, isn’t about what would be nice to haven rather about what is required. Choices are good to figure out what fits you best but then it makes most sense to stick to what you have chosen. At some point, it makes sense to re-evaluate that, and it seems that you are at that point.

A short note about digital FF and Hasselblad. The larger the sensor, the "richer" the images, broadly speaking. The question remains, though, how to leverage that in deliveries. Hasselblad‘s raw files cannot be read by C1. In my case, a showstopper. Naturally, FF produces exceptionally large files. Nothing I‘m looking for. With that in mind, I wonder what a Hasselblad, FF in general, can do for me that FF cannot, and I come to the conclusion that the SL2-S is all I need.

BTW, I use the SL2-S and the 35mm APO for portraits that I print relatively large (80x60cm). Can’t get better and 24MP provides ample detail. 

—-

Cleaning the shelf is always a good idea. I‘d start by selling what you don‘t need. The long zoom? Can go. No projects that require such a lens. Same can be said for the 24-90. Let it go. Do you need two bodies? I‘d sell one, in my case that would be the SL2. Play-around lenses can go at any time. If you don’t need a macro lens, sell it (I need one for digitizing). The 21 APO is said to be a real gem. But if you don’t use it, sell it. As it seems, the Summilux 50 SL is here to stay. OK. 

 

[LocalHero1953]

I sense a degree of boredom and a wish to spice things up a bit, otherwise known as GAS😉! 
I am also attracted to what I read about Hasselblad colours and IBIS, but I'm not disappointed by SL2-S colours, nor its IBIS.
I would like a tilt/flip screen (floor level shots and video), but that's an extreme reason for switching to SL3/SL3-S with no other benefit that I want.
In a Hasselblad I would miss the speed of AF (for performance/stage).
It's not just the SL2-S that keeps me in L-mount, it's the Blackmagic CC6K for video, plus the options (if I ever want them) of lower cost Sigma & Panasonic bodies for video with no additional lenses. I'm well embedded in L-mount, not just in Leica.

For the minimal advantages I would gain from a X2D (including the fun of learning a new system), I would take the big financial hit of buying lenses for a new system. Frankly, I could afford it, but it just seems like spending money for the hell of it, when others could make better use of it (starting with kids and grandkids and looking outwards to 6 billion others). We all have our own personal, arbitrary, rules and boundaries on such things, so I can only say what I am willing to do, not tell you or anyone else.

[wattsy]

Yes, does sound like it might be a case of "grass might be greener.." GAS.

I tend to agree with @hansvons, if you can establish what you actually need rather than what you might like, you might see things clearer. From your post, it sounds like you just want a good platform to take portraits and seascapes. You already have two very fine lenses that you seem to like – 50 Summilux-SL and the 21 APO – and an excellent camera in the SL2. The only other thing you need to create some great portraits and seascapes is what you put in front of the camera. In other words, the limiting factor isn't gear related and I'm not sure what you hope the X2D and XCD 80 will do that your current gear won't. Bigger files, sure, and a different-ish look from the 80mm but the Hasselblad isn't going to enable you to take a meaningfully different photo than your current equipment.

Edited June 12 by wattsy

[Stuart Richardson]

I would wait until at least early next year and see if the S4 comes out. If it does, it may be intriguing for you. Even if it isn't, it will likely push the price of used SL3's down, but it will not really affect the price of the lenses, I believe. It is also quite probable that there will be some interesting new cameras from other companies in that time frame as well, X2D II etc. If nothing else, it will give you time to cool off and evaluate what you need and whether a change is justified.

[Chris W]

In a recent YouTube video, one of the world's top portrait photographer's stated that he mostly used a 50mm (standard lens) and would advise budding portrait photographers to use a 50mm lens and concentrate on a connection with the subject.

I had a Hasselblad X1D2 with a 65mm lens (about 50 in medium format). The images and colours were fantastic, but I sold it because processing could not easily be done in Capture One.

[jaapv]

8 hours ago, lightsourcekauai said:

3. Fear (perhaps unfounded, I readily admit) of lengthy repair times should a repair be necessary (my experience with Leica spooked me). 

All the best.

Lee
 

Although things are clearly improving, this can still be an issue. However it does pay to ask Leica for a loaner. If there is a good reason ( pro, urgent need) they will go out of their way to try and find a solution in my experience. 

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, Chris W said:

one of the world's top portrait photographer's

Who was that?

[earleygallery]

I haven't used any of the gear mentioned in the OP but my advice would be to stick with Leica (why make a wholesale change for minimal if any benefit and some downsides?). 

Sell the lenses you say you don't need anymore, the 24-90, 90-280 and the 85. Sell the older SL body and buy the new one. Don't buy the 90 APO (why do you need it?). 

[Dazzajl]

From the original post, I’m getting that while you seek certain features, your enjoyment of the process is more important than the technical ability of your kit. The hassy X system is absolute work of art and nailed images will of course be exquisite in quality but it’s not strictly the tool for the job of portraiture if you look at abilities alone. 
 

The H system will still outperform the X for studio portraits and the GFX will outperform both. I know it’s not on your list, which is why I’m assuming this is not a commercial decision but a heart based one. For work I use the GFX system because it’s the best specced and most able to deliver in the widest range of situations. If I was buying now for my personal pleasure and enjoyment, I’d want the Hassy X. 
 

All written as someone who loves the SL

[LocalHero1953]

4 minutes ago, Dazzajl said:

outperform

What does this mean, precisely?

I have none of those systems, but I know that everyone has their own criteria for performance, so I'm curious what yours are.

Edited June 12 by LocalHero1953

[Chris W]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Who was that?

Harry Borden

[Dazzajl]

10 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

What does this mean, precisely?

I have none of those systems, but I know that everyone has their own criteria for performance, so I'm curious what yours are.

Talking about the aspects of these cameras that is anywhere between boring and not relevant if you’re not satisfying clients and wanting to maximise your hit rate. 
 

Things like how precise the focus points can be, how quickly and accurately you get a focus lock. Start/wake up time, durability, lens line up, service times or the ability to even find the things in a real shop near you. Other things like frame rates, ability to customise operations accessories, even the price of batteries etc etc. 

If you put two shots from any comparable systems side by side, I don’t think anyone can tell the difference anymore. All cameras are fabulous now and where the differences really lie is not in the outright image quality but in how well what you choose fits your very personal brief. 
 

I use the GFX system for work because it has never failed to deliver, I trust it to get the job done, even when I don’t know what the job is going to be. That’s the sense in which it outperforms for me. And on the flip side of that, I’ve never really liked it. The GFX100 in particular is the ultimate workhorse, beast of a camera but I’ve never enjoyed using it in the way I love an M8 or my SL 601. Which is why if I was choosing a digital MF kit to enjoy making images with, it would be Hassy X, hands down and no question. 

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Hallo,

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[wattsy]

22 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

What does this mean, precisely?

Quite.

Given a certain standard of equipment (which all the gear being discussed here meets), the only thing that is going to "outperform" in any meaningful sense is the photographer's talent.