Need help identify this Summicron 35mm 8-element

[0xjohn]

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Hello

I came across this Summicron 35mm 8 element on marketplace, and this lens has a serial number of 2010546: which falls into the Summicron 3.5 cm 1:2 (11108), and it should be a goggle version according to https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Summicron_(I)_f%3D_3.5_cm_1:2

However, I didn't find any visible modification trace on the lens itself, and the seller claims that this lens is originally designed for M3, not M2.

Can anyone help me identify if this is true or the seller got mistaken.

Thanks a a lot!

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[pippy]

13 minutes ago, 0xjohn said:

...I came across this Summicron 35mm 8 element on marketplace, and this lens has a serial number of 2010546: which falls into the Summicron 3.5 cm 1:2 (11108), and it should be a goggle version according to https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Summicron_(I)_f%3D_3.5_cm_1:2...

Goodness knows I'm no expert but is there any reason that it isn't a 11108 (SAMWO with goggles) but a 11308 (SAWOM) instead? AFAIK they were both offered concurrently in that serial number range and the link posted seems to back-up that thought.

Philip.

Edited June 4 by pippy

[pedaes]

1 hour ago, 0xjohn said:

Hello

You seem to have two threads running on this question. Why?

[lexffm]

Hello @0xjohn,

if you put it in here, it‘s correct. 

 

https://www.fotohandel.de/Service/Literatur/Leica-Seriennummern/

BR

Alex

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[lct]

If it were designed for M3 it would have goggles normally (cat. # 11,108). But goggles were detachable by two screws in 1963 IINW. This lens having no attachment, it could be a version for M2 instead (cat. # 11,308) but i'm no specialist either. Excerpt of the Leitz catalog for 1964 below.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/n-f7p9M/Samples/i-FNd2rWn/0/NSmBFKBKxhMVLWZxrWMM9xXWVjHjKkZ6TtsNfNF5P/O/Capture d’écran 2025-06-04 à 17.10.56.png

 

[0xjohn]

16 hours ago, pippy said:

Goodness knows I'm no expert but is there any reason that it isn't a 11108 (SAMWO with goggles) but a 11308 (SAWOM) instead? AFAIK they were both offered concurrently in that serial number range and the link posted seems to back-up that thought.

Philip.

hi @pippythe link I posted shows that it is in the 2009501 ~2011000 batch, which only has model 11108 produced, and it is the goggled version.

So I'm quite confused... 
Is there something I missed or misunderstood?

 

[adan]

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1 hour ago, 0xjohn said:

Is there something I missed or misunderstood?

Possibly that, in that era, Leitz was not especially interested in the needs of collectors or historians - just in making sure that each lens had a S/N, and each S/N had a lens.

Note that the reference you linked to originally already has numerous "errata" listed - numbers that do not conform to the S/N ranges guessed at by "after the fact" examination of a random sampling of lenses years later.

"Serial numbers compiled from known lenses and Puts Pocket Pod.pdf
* Lens nos. 1745260, 1745738, 1746019 & 1746308 are 2/35 Summicron (ELC.M3-chrom+M2-black)
** Lens no. 1856205 is Summicron 3.5 cm 1:2 (ELC.M-black)
^ Lens no. 1571311 is Summicron 3.5 cm 1:2 (ELW.M-chrom)"

So absolute perfection in matching will be a question of religion, not science. "Put not your faith in.......etc."

Personal experience: I have had a couple of early copies of the v.III 90mm Summicron-M (the E49 version where the lens hood covered the aperture ring when retracted) from the same Canadian factory.

A lens introduced in 1980.

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/90mm_f/2_Summicron-M_III

Yet both of those 90s had serial numbers from 1977, and also from ranges "set aside" for 35mm lenses (see the errata for that lens also)

 

[0xjohn]

hi @adan thank you for the detailed explanation!
That is really helpful!

So I guess the most practical thing I can do is to check if this lens can correctly focus at any range and brings up the right frameline..

So far I cannot see any critical identifier that can lead to an absolute answer saying that this lens is designed for M2 or M3. 

[adan]

One of the Leica history mavens here may know.

What I know is this:

1) Simply removing the goggles will leave an M3 version still obviously "an M3 lens with the goggles removed." Because the rest of the lens has a distinct silver flange firmly built-in, for attaching the goggles. See images here: 

https://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2020/05/35mm-lenses-for-leica-m3-goggles-on.html

2) To remove THAT mounting flange as well would require additional surgery and/or replacement parts, possibly to the whole lens mount. Or leave marks if it was just cut off.

3) I guess it is possible someone would go to all that trouble/expense - and yet still not make the lens M2/3/4/etc-compatable by also replacing the focus cam (and lens mount, and focus ring scale?) to match the new RF/VF geometry.

4) I'm sure Leitz/Leica would not do so - they would (for a price) simply rebuild the lens as needed to turn it entirely into a functioning 11308 for the post-M3 cameras. Leitz had been "rebuilding/upgrading older designs to new specs" since the 1930s (see e.g. Leica I/II/IIIc or f cameras). It was one of their "unique selling propositions."

5) If the seller is telling the truth, that could easily be the case.

6) But Occam's Razor suggests something simpler. One brisk October day in 1963, when ELCAN was building both M3 and M2 3.5cm Summicron versions, out of the production line came an M2-ready 35 Summicron. And the assembler just reached into his cardboard box of X-many-dozen "Pre-Engraved Front Rings For 3.5cm Summicrons" and pulled out a ring at random numbered "2010546." And screwed it into that lens. And made a note in a ledger - "#2010546 - 3.5cm 1:2 Summicron." And the person boxing it noted the lack of the goggles, and put it in a box labelled "11308" and stamped it (and the warranty card) "2010546." And off it went into the world, to a happy customer who "got what it said on the box."

[pippy]

5 hours ago, 0xjohn said:

hi @pippythe link I posted shows that it is in the 2009501 ~2011000 batch, which only has model 11108 produced, and it is the goggled version.

So I'm quite confused... 
Is there something I missed or misunderstood?

Leitz assigned serial numbers in batches but that isn't to say all numbers in any particular batch couldn't have a few 'outliers'. For instance I have a 1953 50mm f1.5 Summarit. In 1953 the M mount, commercially, didn't yet exist but my lens is in M-mount. 

As you say; if the lens brings up the 35mm frames then that would settle the matter.

Philip.

[0xjohn]

thank you all for the replies and details informations!
I've ordered the lens and after I get the chance to test it, I'll let you all know the result of it.

Thank a lot!