Are there any third party lens that replicate the Steel Rim well?

[mottykytu]

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8 minutes ago, jaapv said:

To me, assuming any difference in one's photographs based on this amounts to ultra-geekery. 

To me, assuming that they are exactly the same without any direct comparision is unrealistic.

Edited Saturday at 06:33 PM by mottykytu

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[costa43]

4 hours ago, mottykytu said:

The V2 Summilux is still at very high price while the Rendering is completely different from the steel-Rim (which I'm looking for)

It also have a strange flare , especially when shoot directly to the light source or Night light bulb

You say strange flare, the 35mm Summilux pre-ASPH says hold my 🍺

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[jaapv]

32 minutes ago, mottykytu said:

To me, assuming that they are exactly the same without any direct comparision is unrealistic.

That is not what I said. There are differences when compared side by side, but I highly doubt the practical results in real life. 

[sinjun]

2 hours ago, mottykytu said:

2 hours ago, sinjun said:

What makes you think that the rendering of the version 2 Summliux pre-asph is completely different from that of the steel rim? It's not what I have heard.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1822132/

 

Read here, Owners of 3 lens did compare the 3 : Orginal Steel Rim, Reissue and the V2 Summilux

That's a great comparison of the three versions on Fred Miranda's site, but other than the images with flare, it shows that they are very similar - certainly not 'completely different'. As the person whose steel-rim reissue was used in the comparison says: 'Most of the shots you took are almost identical minus some subtleties that you really have to search for.'

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, mottykytu said:

Leica has been praised for their optical for so long, and the glow has always been there until the ASPH. So I think it is more of their signature rather than Technology Limitation. And their glow also has different look and feel than cheaper Competitor !

It is not until 2025 people praise Leica glow but decades ago.

 

The point is : if we spent that much for vintage, Leica character look, we must ask for those signature character, otherwise we can always buy a Voiglander APO and have better technical IQ than any pre ASPH Summicron for sure.

I disagree. I've owned Leica M lenses since 1980; my recollection is that Leica lenses were praised for the same things that their modern lenses are praised for now: sharpness, contrast, colour and detail - but the standards and expectations have changed over the years. 'Glow' didn't become a desirable thing until the mature digital era.

But the great thing is that we now have vast choices in M (and LTM lenses): cheap/expensive, perfect and imperfect* optics, Leica/Voigtlander/Zeiss/Nikon/Canon and burgeoning Chinese brands.

 

* AKA character,

[Vanillasludge]

37 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I disagree. I've owned Leica M lenses since 1980; my recollection is that Leica lenses were praised for the same things that their modern lenses are praised for now: sharpness, contrast, colour and detail - but the standards and expectations have changed over the years. 'Glow' didn't become a desirable thing until the mature digital era.

But the great thing is that we now have vast choices in M (and LTM lenses): cheap/expensive, perfect and imperfect* optics, Leica/Voigtlander/Zeiss/Nikon/Canon and burgeoning Chinese brands.

 

* AKA character,

Some history and a probably unpopular opinion:

I’ve been shooting Leica’s since “back in the day” (The 70’s) and I can tell you that before the internet, we did not want “glow”.

In the late 80’s I bought a new pre-asph Summilux and promptly returned it because I thought it was broken.  The camera store explained that the terrible wide open performance was “normal” but happily exchanged my lens for the then current Summicron v4.  I didn’t feel I had lost a stop because I would never show or even print an image as lousy looking as the Summilux can be at full aperture.

These days, I understand them as collectibles, but I can’t imagine throwing a massive variable into my work flow and purposely hamstringing my camera if I don’t have to. 

For me the best lens I can use at the time is the best lens to use at any time. 
 

best wishes
 

 

[evikne]

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17 minutes ago, Vanillasludge said:

Some history and a probably unpopular opinion:

I’ve been shooting Leica’s since “back in the day” (The 70’s) and I can tell you that before the internet, we did not want “glow”.

In the late 80’s I bought a new pre-asph Summilux and promptly returned it because I thought it was broken.  The camera store explained that the terrible wide open performance was “normal” but happily exchanged my lens for the then current Summicron v4.  I didn’t feel I had lost a stop because I would never show or even print an image as lousy looking as the Summilux can be at full aperture.

These days, I understand them as collectibles, but I can’t imagine throwing a massive variable into my work flow and purposely hamstringing my camera if I don’t have to. 

For me the best lens I can use at the time is the best lens to use at any time. 
 

best wishes

I have the Summilux v2 myself, but I actually agree. I very rarely use it wide open, because I'm not a fan of the wild glow. Only in some lighting conditions can it look almost normal wide open, but usually I use it from f/2 and beyond. I also dislike the 1 meter focus limit.

I've also owned the Summicron v4, which is better in most respects, but I think the Summilux looks cooler with its larger front element, which is why I can live with its shortcomings. 😉

[pippy]

10 hours ago, mottykytu said:

The V2 Summilux......Rendering is completely different from the steel-Rim...

 

Here is a schematic diagram which shows the optical design of the Summilux v1;

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Here, by way of contrast, is a schematic diagram which shows the optical design of the Summilux v2;

 

Any questions?

P.

Edited Sunday at 12:30 AM by pippy
Simplification. Clearly it is needed here...

[mottykytu]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

 

Here is a schematic diagram which shows the optical design of the Summilux v1;

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Here, by way of contrast, is a schematic diagram which shows the optical design of the Summilux v2;

 

Any questions?

P.

So you think just because the same optical design on paper will bring exactly the same result in your final IQ ?

Lol, Is it the first time you see that ?

Even exactly the same version through out the years have different final IQ due to different coating... 

Oh, ever heard of Steel Rim and Steel Rim Reissues yet ? You think they are exactly the same lense ??? Lol

Edited Sunday at 01:02 AM by mottykytu

[Vanillasludge]

27 minutes ago, mottykytu said:

So you think just because the same optical design on paper will bring exactly the same result in your final IQ ?

Lol, Is it the first time you see that ?

Even exactly the same version through out the years have different final IQ due to different coating... 

Oh, ever heard of Steel Rim and Steel Rim Reissues yet ? You think they are exactly the same lense ??? Lol

I think if these two original Leica versions are not similar enough then the fake ones will never satisfy.  In this case the very expensive original is your only hope. 

[mottykytu]

27 minutes ago, Vanillasludge said:

I think if these two original Leica versions are not similar enough then the fake ones will never satisfy.  In this case the very expensive original is your only hope. 

Obviously not

The LLL 8 elements is seem to be more satisfy than any remake of the Leica 8 elements has ever been.

I don't know how they do that but the rendering is very similar. The Leica 8 elements just a little bit warmer.

While the Steel Rim and the Reissues are different, especially in the way they handle flare and glow (Which you can hardly reproduce in post) !

Edited Sunday at 02:00 AM by mottykytu

[mottykytu]

6 hours ago, sinjun said:

That's a great comparison of the three versions on Fred Miranda's site, but other than the images with flare, it shows that they are very similar - certainly not 'completely different'. As the person whose steel-rim reissue was used in the comparison says: 'Most of the shots you took are almost identical minus some subtleties that you really have to search for.'

I will post the comparision from the owner of the 3 lenses here so you can see how "different" they are, and as I say mostly the obvious differents are at F/1.4 (which is why you buy the summilux not summicron right?). Stopped down they are very similar

 

Played around with these three a little. A few observations (rendering mostly refers to f/1.4):

- Despite being the smallest lens of the three, the steel rim is the heaviest at 220 grams. The reissue is 206, and the v2 is 182.
- The reissue has the highest contrast, followed by the v2, and finally the steel rim.
- The reissue is much more flare resistant. The v2 flares very easily, followed slightly by the steel rim.
- The steel rim has the warmest image, followed very slightly by the reissue (which also has slightly more magenta), while the v2 has a noticeably cooler rendering.
- The reissue is the sharpest at all distances (but most noticeable at mid distance-infinity), followed slightly by the v2, and finally the steel rim.
- The reissue is the largest of the three (46mm filter thread vs 41mm on the steel rim and what would probably be 39mm on the v2).
- The steel rim has the nicest build quality, followed by the reissue and finally the v2 (mostly because it’s plastic).
- The aperture ring on the reissue is much “flimsier” than the steel rim. It’s closer in feeling and use to the v2.
- The v2 vignettes the most, and despite having a much larger front filter thread the reissue vignettes a little more than the steel rim.
- The reissue field of view is narrower than the steel rim and the v2 by 1-2mm which produces more blur and larger specular highlights than the other two.
- The glow seems pretty similar between the three, but the higher contrast of the reissue makes the glow seem more intense and more widespread in some cases. It also appears to have some CA mixed in with the glow.
- My copy of the steel rim is softer than both the v2 and the reissue at infinity. I am not sure if this is a hard stop issue with my copy or a characteristic of the lens. Because of this, the v2 and reissue are sharper at infinity than my steel rim.

Going to take a few more pics this morning. Will share some images later today. Here is an iPhone shot of the steel rim and the reissue showing the size and coating difference (those aren't scratches, just reflections).

[mottykytu]

8 hours ago, costa43 said:

You say strange flare, the 35mm Summilux pre-ASPH says hold my 🍺

 

 

 

 

You see? there only 1-2 situation where that types of flare work

Even in your 4 photos, you are doing exactly the same thing just in different ways which is put the object in the middle of the flare. When the object don't look Directly to the camera !

When you step back and look for wider usability, those flare don't work in most of the situation ! Now you know the secret

Can you handle this type of flare from the V2 when shooting directly to the sun and the Subject look at the camera ? I doubt it lol

http://joerivanderkloet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/l1001023-1024x683.jpg

Edited Sunday at 02:42 AM by mottykytu

[costa43]

30 minutes ago, mottykytu said:

You see? there only 1-2 situation where that types of flare work

Even in your 4 photos, you are doing exactly the same thing just in different ways which is put the object in the middle of the flare. When the object don't look Directly to the camera !

When you step back and look for wider usability, those flare don't work in most of the situation ! Now you know the secret

Can you handle this type of flare from the V2 when shooting directly to the sun and the Subject look at the camera ? I doubt it lol

http://joerivanderkloet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/l1001023-1024x683.jpg

Shooting straight into the sun at f1.4 often results in a loss of contrast and a somewhat hazier image. I have many examples of when it has gone wrong too but that’s how these vintage lenses work. None of them are very predictable with this sort of thing, sometimes you get lucky and the flare works for you. With an M, it is even harder as you tend to look through an OVF so there is no real time image. The steel rim has a very similar personality I can assure you. You would have to really knuckle down and focus on small specifics to see a difference. You will probably see a bigger difference on individual v2 models due to the extremely long production run, there is a lot of sample variation with this model.
 

The Nokton is a good lens but it is its own lens. It gives you more sharpness and less glow wide open which may be preferred. It also has a 0.7m minimum focus which is the one thing I miss on the v2. 

Edited Sunday at 03:11 AM by costa43

[costa43]

5 hours ago, Vanillasludge said:

Some history and a probably unpopular opinion:

I’ve been shooting Leica’s since “back in the day” (The 70’s) and I can tell you that before the internet, we did not want “glow”.

In the late 80’s I bought a new pre-asph Summilux and promptly returned it because I thought it was broken.  The camera store explained that the terrible wide open performance was “normal” but happily exchanged my lens for the then current Summicron v4.  I didn’t feel I had lost a stop because I would never show or even print an image as lousy looking as the Summilux can be at full aperture.

These days, I understand them as collectibles, but I can’t imagine throwing a massive variable into my work flow and purposely hamstringing my camera if I don’t have to. 

For me the best lens I can use at the time is the best lens to use at any time. 
 

best wishes
 

 

I totally see why you would opt for that choice, the pre-ASPH is a bit of fun wide open, often the image is for the bin but now and again it puts a smile on my face. I have well corrected lenses too that I use for my project work but it’s nice to have a few of these not so perfect lenses, especially on the modern high resolving sensors, I feel they just take the edge off and give you a different option which is a look I am fond of sometimes, I also enjoy the modern look too, all photography is great.

 

Edited Sunday at 03:31 AM by costa43

[costa43]

5 hours ago, evikne said:

I've also owned the Summicron v4, which is better in most respects, but I think the Summilux looks cooler with its larger front element, which is why I can live with its shortcomings. 😉

That’s the best (most Leica) reason I’ve heard for picking the v2! 😂

Edited Sunday at 03:59 AM by costa43

[LocalHero1953]

4 hours ago, mottykytu said:

I will post the comparision from the owner of the 3 lenses here so you can see how "different" they are, and as I say mostly the obvious differents are at F/1.4 (which is why you buy the summilux not summicron right?). Stopped down they are very similar

 

Played around with these three a little. A few observations (rendering mostly refers to f/1.4):

- Despite being the smallest lens of the three, the steel rim is the heaviest at 220 grams. The reissue is 206, and the v2 is 182.
- The reissue has the highest contrast, followed by the v2, and finally the steel rim.
- The reissue is much more flare resistant. The v2 flares very easily, followed slightly by the steel rim.
- The steel rim has the warmest image, followed very slightly by the reissue (which also has slightly more magenta), while the v2 has a noticeably cooler rendering.
- The reissue is the sharpest at all distances (but most noticeable at mid distance-infinity), followed slightly by the v2, and finally the steel rim.
- The reissue is the largest of the three (46mm filter thread vs 41mm on the steel rim and what would probably be 39mm on the v2).
- The steel rim has the nicest build quality, followed by the reissue and finally the v2 (mostly because it’s plastic).
- The aperture ring on the reissue is much “flimsier” than the steel rim. It’s closer in feeling and use to the v2.
- The v2 vignettes the most, and despite having a much larger front filter thread the reissue vignettes a little more than the steel rim.
- The reissue field of view is narrower than the steel rim and the v2 by 1-2mm which produces more blur and larger specular highlights than the other two.
- The glow seems pretty similar between the three, but the higher contrast of the reissue makes the glow seem more intense and more widespread in some cases. It also appears to have some CA mixed in with the glow.
- My copy of the steel rim is softer than both the v2 and the reissue at infinity. I am not sure if this is a hard stop issue with my copy or a characteristic of the lens. Because of this, the v2 and reissue are sharper at infinity than my steel rim.

Going to take a few more pics this morning. Will share some images later today. Here is an iPhone shot of the steel rim and the reissue showing the size and coating difference (those aren't scratches, just reflections).

It appears that you have no experience of any of these lenses yourself, and are just passing on comments from others without citation. And from your other posts I don't think you own a M camera, but I'm sure you can correct me on this.

I think you need to start gaining and passing on your own experience before arguing strongly for one particular viewpoint, and responding to the experience of others with sarcastic 'lol' posts. 

[pippy]

8 hours ago, mottykytu said:

So you think just...

😸

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[mottykytu]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

It appears that you have no experience of any of these lenses yourself, and are just passing on comments from others without citation. And from your other posts I don't think you own a M camera, but I'm sure you can correct me on this.

I think you need to start gaining and passing on your own experience before arguing strongly for one particular viewpoint, and responding to the experience of others with sarcastic 'lol' posts. 

Sure I will correct you, I own a M camera and Leica lens

Don't know what make you think I don't own any M camera or Leica lens? your assumption ?

Edited Sunday at 11:02 AM by mottykytu

[mottykytu]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

😸

The Leica Summilux-M 35mm f/1.4 "Steel Rim" reissue lens, released in 2022, retains the same optical design as the original lens from the 1960s

Well, and you will say that the Steel Rim and the Steel Rim Reissues are exactly the same rendering
 

Edited Sunday at 11:04 AM by mottykytu