Leica quality: my rant

[wolan]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi,

with all due respect for all the Leica supporters I have to say that I am totally fed up with the Leica cameras. 

I am so happy I replaced my M11 with a Hasselblad X2D and I'll never go back again. I find in the Hasselblad system everything I was missing with Leica.

I am still using a M11 monochrome, but just until Hasselblad does not come up with its own monochrome camera or at least a nice monochrome profile, like Nikon did and which I am starting to use more and more.

Here is a list of problems that have plagued my shootings and that no firmware was able to fix so far (I do not have the very last one in, but does not seem to address the problems below anyway):

• Freezes: granted, it got better over time, but I am still experiencing 1 or 2 freezes every shooting. Battery in and out fixes the problem
• Green focus peaking with EVF: this problem is not the end of the world, but it is extremely annoying, so much the more because I am sure it would not take much to fix it. Sometimes for no reason the blue focus peaking, which I have always been using, turns green. Typically, zooming in and out while keeping the eye on the EVF will fix the problem. 
• (New entry after last firmware update): When using the display profile with the gauge level the gauge level does not move when turning the camera in vertical position. Fix: battery out, battery in
• (New entry since last shooting): Apparently only when using a new adapter for Mamiya 645 lenses: the EVF turns black after shooting and then previewing a picture on the back display. Pushing the "Play" button 2 times in a row seems to fix the problem...

Now, consider that I was a happy Leica M246 shooter, which I think is still the best black and white camera Leica has ever made. But because of the challenges with using that camera, I upgraded to M10M, which was also good. But because of the many incompatibility problems with the EVF and repeated freezes I ended up upgrading the EVF to Visoflex 2, only to find out that it could be used in a limited way and the compatibility problems were not fixed anyway. So I ended up buying the supposedly best of best, M11M with the Visoflex 2.

I am really sick this attitude and as I said I totally am happy to have switched to Hasselblad. I do not blame the engineers, I think they are doing their best. I blame the marketing who pushes for new features, new Safari versions without fixing the quality problem first.

Thanks for your attention, I'll be glad to hear your point of view.

Nico.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[wolan]

I forgot this one:

• The new generation M cameras have batteries with a spring-loaded mechanism, much like in the Hasselblad system. It always worked perfectly, but one day, during a holiday in Italy, I was not able to push out the battery. No way, I almost damaged the camera, but no way, basically I could not shoot anymore during my vacation. I wrote to Leica, but they could not help. Once at home, magically the battery came out. Actually I could insert it and extract it again without problem. But then it happened again...Until I realized that the problem is in the Leica hand grip for the M11M. Apparently if I screw it too tight that interferes with the battery. Now whenever it happens, I slightly unscrew the hand grip and the battery comes out. So....

 

 

[pedaes]

14 minutes ago, wolan said:

I'll be glad to hear your point of view.

You have made your decision and I hope you enjoy your Hasselblad experience. Why dwell on the past, move on. "...everything I was missing with Leica" suggests a very bad decision on your part to buy a Leica in the first place.

[sandro]

I agree with pedaes about your choice. I am sorry to hear about the problems with Leica you experienced, but since the Hasselblad X2D is a completely different camera probably the Leica M was not the right choice you made. Enjoy the Hasselblad.

Lex

[sometimesmaybe]

1 hour ago, wolan said:

I am so happy I replaced my M11 with a Hasselblad X2D

enjoy your blad. i personally use a GFX + m246 combo. GFX for anything colour or needs AF, m246 for everything else

[LocalHero1953]

16 hours ago, wolan said:

I am really sick this attitude and as I said I totally am happy to have switched to Hasselblad. I do not blame the engineers, I think they are doing their best. I blame the marketing who pushes for new features, new Safari versions without fixing the quality problem first.

 

If there was one group of people I would expect to not fix quality problem, it's marketers. 🤫
Any quality problems are down to the engineers and assemblers.. Who else can you blame?

I agree you're probably better off with another camera. Since most of your problems are EVF-linked, you'll be better with a body that is EVF-centric rather than one with an EVF add-on.

Edited May 20 by LocalHero1953

[Dazzajl]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I can understand this. When you buy the most expensive camera on the market, you expect a certain level of quality but the perfection of high volume manufacturing are not necessarily the Leica qualities. Especially with the M line of cameras. 
 

The Hassy X system is much more suited to EVF shooting and hopefully will continue to be your happy place for a long time. There really isn’t a shooting experience like using a rangefinder and if I was behind the choices at Leica, I wouldn’t have the option to put an electronic viewer on an M camera at all. ☺️

[Jeff S]

In the US, at least there are reputable dealers nationwide to provide sales, service, warranty and return, etc.  There is no comparable dealer network for Hasselblad here.  This, in conjunction with Hasselblad’s DJI ownership, doesn’t provide me with confidence in their long term priorities and commitments, let alone the Chinese/US divides. Shifting US repair service from east to west coast was another matter.  Every company has significant factors for consumers to consider.  Choices are good.  

I’ve had M bodies since the 80’s, including 7 different digital Ms (now M10-R and M10 Monochrom), and have been fortunate to have had almost no problems. But I’m also not an early adopter, preferring to let others be “beta  testers.” I consider my SL2 to be the X2D counterpart, not the M. The SL 24-90 is my workhorse, and there is no XCD equivalent if I were to switch systems. Priorities and preferences differ.

[charlesphoto99]

One solution: don't use the EVF. I wish Leica had never gone down that route and left the M an M with an optical finder only. It would have eliminated a lot of problems, such as the OP buying the wrong camera for the wrong reasons. 

[sandro]

12 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

the OP buying the wrong camera for the wrong reasons. 

Is Leica to blame for that? 

Lex

[Dazzajl]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

This, in conjunction with Hasselblad’s DJI ownership, doesn’t provide me with confidence in their long term priorities and commitments

That’s an interesting perspective to me. My work world is now filled with DJI technology, it’s all extremely well built, very thoroughly thought out and has been totally reliable. Industry leading in fact. So from that point of view, the ingestion of the Hasselblad brand into the DJI world has only increased my confidence in the product. I’d now be far more likely to buy in than a few years ago but without the hands on with DJI, I’d almost certainly see it the other way around. 

[wolan]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb sandro:

Is Leica to blame for that? 

Lex

I am not following this and other replies to my post, I bought this camera to take beautiful pictures accepting all limitations of the system. The Hasselblad has also limitations.

If the Leica products are not working properly, whom should I blame, Nikon?

 

[costa43]

Congratulations on finding happiness with Hasselblad. It's a great image making tool. I've not seen a better mainstream camera for outright image quality, with DJI being the owners, I can see them pushing out a lot more product too which bodes well for their future but in some ways, they sold out and are more at risk if the profit is not there in my opinion.  I prefer the rangefinder and the manual experience the M gives me. I can live with the quirks of the different Leica bodies as the process is as important (if not more so) than the output at times. Each to their own. You've made your decision and seem happy so time to move on and chalk it up as yet another experience. 

Edited May 20 by costa43

[Jeff S]

34 minutes ago, Dazzajl said:

That’s an interesting perspective to me. My work world is now filled with DJI technology, it’s all extremely well built, very thoroughly thought out and has been totally reliable. Industry leading in fact. So from that point of view, the ingestion of the Hasselblad brand into the DJI world has only increased my confidence in the product. I’d now be far more likely to buy in than a few years ago but without the hands on with DJI, I’d almost certainly see it the other way around. 

The financial investment is of course welcome, and the tech focus and capabilities are undeniable.  The part I’m not sure about is the commitment to photography and the camera market (not drone cameras) long term, especially as industry conditions (including profit generation) continue to toughen.  This is true for all camera companies, but at least we know about current Leica leadership thinking, combined with a rich company legacy.  DJI?

[charlesphoto99]

1 hour ago, sandro said:

Is Leica to blame for that? 

Lex

In a way, yes. Don't give people the choice, and they won't know what they're missing.  Esp if that choice is half-baked compared to what is already there natively. 

[Dazzajl]

29 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The part I’m not sure about is the commitment to photography and the camera market (not drone cameras) long term

That’s a very valid point. I’m hoping that a company as smart as DJI know that the value in the brand name they bought with Hasselblad is directly linked to making those premium cameras. I guess we’ll only really get a clue of the long term direction when we see a new Hassy product, my fingers are crossed. 

[Jeff S]

And I should have noted the investment Leica now has in its stores.  While I can’t stop in anywhere remotely close to me to handle a Hasselblad, Leica keeps expanding its locations and financial commitment. Otherwise, I’d be much more tempted by the X2D.

[pgh]

If you were using the Visoflex a lot I could have told you the M was the wrong system for you long ago. It's fine for an in a pinch retrofit sort of solution to a problem these cameras were never really designed to tackle I guess, but I'd never make it main part of using the tool. 

FWIW, I own an X2d and M10 Mono (and other variations). I still prefer the M10 mono to my X2d, even though the X2d quality is maybe marginally better (but different). For color, the hassy is amazingly perfect, and also just lacking charm, for me. 

But if I need IBIS or an EVF for whatever reason, I will use the X2d.

I hate to break it to you, but I'm about as familiar with Hasselblad as I am Leica over the past decade and I wouldn't say Hasselblad is any more bug free or reliable, and the service infrastructure is even more rickety. They're an ever smaller company and this means some problems are even bigger problems. 

These are the two most niche, finicky camera makers out there. They make some great and interesting stuff, but if you want hassle free get a camera from Japan. 

That said, I've not touched the M11 series. No interest in it. 

Edited May 22 by pgh

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

There is the xcd 35-75 (28-60), a best match... Absolutely amazing, a set of primes in a convenien (but big) package.

I’m aware, but far from equivalent 24-90, for me.  But, good to know it’s prime level; the Leica S 30-90 did not maintain S lens standards.

[pgh]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

If you scoop all the M11 issues and all the X2D issues from the internet and peers and also ask any AI app that does that about the comparison you will realize that the M11 has more frequently reported reliability issues, particularly concerning freezing, SSD and lens recognition, coupled with prolonged service times. The X2D OTOH is generally reliable and major issues are not commonly reported. So the ratio is somewhere at 70:30 according to my educated guess.

It’s not a bad guess but there is also a much smaller Internet forum presence for Hasselblad. For instance, issues I encountered were not reported online, and I never posted about them. I just had to deal directly with the brand - who was in the middle of moving their service operations to California and by my experience sure seemed like they had maybe 2 full time employees (bless their hearts) working for them trying to both fix cameras answer emails and answer the phones. I have no idea, but the experience was…let’s say less than professional compared to Leica - even with the longer service times.

It’s possible there have been Hasselblad issues that were not vocalized - though I do think the X2d probably is more reliable - that doesn’t discount that the x1d, x1d2 and 907x50c all have existed in this time frame though! It’s also possible Hassy has beefed up US support and presence, but it wasn’t all that long ago that I looked into it.

For as much as I’ve griped about Leica reliability and service in this forum, Hasselblad, collectively, hasn’t been much better - for me. Though I will say that my X2d and my long since sold Olympus Pen F are the only new digital cameras that has been problem free out of the new box in the last 9-10 years from me - which is basically the time that I left using Sony gear.