Color vs BW, two questions

[jaapv]

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It appears to me that many posters have never heard of a black point - or a white point for that matter. Nor of the zones in between…Levels and curves are alien territory . 

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Fuad7]

19 minutes ago, Aram Langhans said:

As an old time photographer, I always carried two cameras around with me.  One had color film, and one had black and white film.  Sometimes I even wished for a third camera with a much faster or slower film.  (Digital is great for that) There are certain subjects that just scream black and white and others that scream color at least in my mind’s eye.  I have yet to see beautiful fall color shots or rainbow shots in black and white.  But I have seen impressive landscapes and portraits in black and white that far exceed the color versions.  Perhaps someone who has not used black and white film for decades might have a problem deciding when black and white is more appropriate/powerful than color.

I do not have a dedicated monochrome camera but have been tempted.  Then again, that would mean carrying two cameras around again, something that my 75-year-old bones would protest.  I have worked with a few monochrome files and they are indeed wonderful, but not so much better than a converted Q2 or Q3 file, so I have resisted.  And as so many have pointed out, a skilled B&W photographer used filters while taking their photos in their bag of tricks to make their darkroom work so much easier.  With a color digital file, it is so easy just to move a slider in Lightroom to get for the most part the same effect that you would get by adding a filter to a monochrome camera.  It might even be better on one way – a filter on a lens cuts down the light so you might have to crank up the ISO on the monochrome camera where you would not have to do that with a color file that you manipulate in post processing.  Not sure if you would loose anything with he post processing color “filters”. 

I'll just add a quote by famous Leica photographer Ted Grant.  “When you photograph people in color, you photograph their clothes. But when you photograph people in Black and white, you photograph their souls!”

Thank you for your invaluable advice. And I loved that quote! 
Thank you!🙏 

[jaapv]

54 minutes ago, Aram Langhans said:

It might even be better on one way – a filter on a lens cuts down the light so you might have to crank up the ISO on the monochrome camera where you would not have to do that with a color file that you manipulate in post processing.

I'm afraid that this is not the case. A monochrome camera has a sensor without the (colour) Bayer filter and thus you are only adding which has been removed by putting a colour filter in front of the lens. Thus a monochrome camera sans filter will have a higher base ISO than the equivalent colour camera. 

[01af]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Aram Langhans:

I always carried two cameras around with me.  One had color film, and one had black-and-white film.

Carrying two cameras — one for colour, one for black-and-white — means mastering none.

[jaapv]

A bit harsh, Olaf. Some of us can multitask. (Not me... 🙃)

[Aram Langhans]

1 hour ago, 01af said:

Carrying two cameras — one for colour, one for black-and-white — means mastering none.

So I take it that someone who converts some of their color digital shots to B&W would fall into the same category?  Same situation only one camera instead of two?

[Jeff S]

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I never carry a color digital camera with me when using a Monochrom.  The main benefit of a Monochrom for me is that, like using B&W film, it promotes a B&W mindset by avoiding distractions from considering potential color pics. Instead it’s all about brightness/luminance differences and tonal relationships that best support the subject and composition.  In the end, for me, it’s about translating the worthy pics to print.

[JNK100]

7 hours ago, Aram Langhans said:

So I take it that someone who converts some of their color digital shots to B&W would fall into the same category?  Same situation only one camera instead of two?

That would be me then😂

[LocalHero1953]

9 hours ago, Aram Langhans said:

I'll just add a quote by famous Leica photographer Ted Grant.  “When you photograph people in color, you photograph their clothes. But when you photograph people in Black and white, you photograph their souls!”

I have read this before, and, contrarian that I am, have not agreed with it. I call BS, even if he was a great photographer. If you can't photograph people in colour, then you have failed to control the colour in your composition. Attempting it in black and white is an admission of that failure.

I should add that I usually fail, and only succeed by accident. But I don't try to dress up failure as evidence of success.

[steps down and hides in the shadows near the exit🥸]

[espelt]

Black and white has a special aesthetic. One that has always fascinated me. To take the example of televisions: An old Fritz Lang film or something from the "black series" with Bogart – a visual delight in black and white. I always enjoy watching it again and again. The third time around, you can also pay attention to the details and how such a film was "photographed." Wonderful...
Probably because I like such things, I eventually switched to using only black and white film in my film cameras and tried to find the right subjects. Which also means taking fewer photos. More selective. There are even fewer once the film is developed. Not every subject is suitable. But the ones that make it to the "final round" are somehow special (for me).
I now also shoot with a monochrome camera. It's not so much about "better" or "worse." In fact, some things are easier with a digital camera. For example, air travel. These days, you have to worry about film being destroyed. And of course, there's no lab work or film development. The image quality of the Monochrom is truly fascinating. Especially the ISO capability. Dark night, ISO 25000? No problem. Indoors with candles, fog, rainy days with low light - perfect conditions. If you like that sort of thing, it's the right camera. Of course, it was and is possible with film, too. It just requires a bit more effort. With the Monochrom, you can simply stroll through the city in the evening and try your luck handheld.

And for a child's birthday party, or a sunny day at the beach with colorful kites in the blue sky, there's the smartphone or the Point & Shot. In good light, it also delivers truly amazing results.

[thegobi]

The technical side: pretty much everything Jaapv said is true.

Everything else is just what you want from photography: B&W is a choice — using B&W film or a Monochrom is just a total commitment to that choice

If you would feel constrained by a Monochrom, for heavens sake don’t buy one!

Now here is a question: atmospheric (not colour) effects that you get from a blue filter on a Monochrom—are they reproducible with a colour camera? A blue filter enhances the falloff of clarity through light scatter—it is a depth related effect.

Will just trashing the red and green channels give you the same result? (while throwing away 2/3rds of the light)

I have never been able to get my head around that one…

[Mikep996]

I shoot a lot of B/W either via converted digital images or (nowadays) 4x5 film.  I have seen on-line comparisons of monochrome camera pics vs converted color sensor pics via full resolution downloads and, frankly, can't see any useful difference at any ISO that I ever use.  Certainly, there are very noticeable differences at high ISOs but since I never shoot above ISO 3200 - and that very seldom - a monochrome camera doesn't really make any sense for me even though I seriously thought about it for a while.

Some days I go out just looking for BW subjects but, just as with film, I view the subject as it appears through the viewfinder, I don't change the view to BW.  But again, being used to film in the pre-digital days, I'm quite comfortable with that.  

[Jeff S]

5 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

Some days I go out just looking for BW subjects but, just as with film, I view the subject as it appears through the viewfinder, I don't change the view to BW.  But again, being used to film in the pre-digital days, I'm quite comfortable with that.  

Fwiw, I also never change the VF to B&W when using a Monochrom.  Visualizing in B&W, just as in film days, is in the brain, not the VF.  Rather, the B&W mindset that I mentioned earlier is about elimination of distractions by not considering potential color pics, and instead concentrating on making B&W images.  I can do that with a color-based digital camera, but not with the same effect as B&W film days.  I initially rejected this notion as a benefit for using a Monochrom… until I used one.

 

[Viv]

1. B/W suits certain types of image, particularly those with strong graphical or patterned elements.

2. I don't know, I have never had a dedicated monochrome camera.

[jcalchi]

On 3/27/2025 at 9:03 AM, Fuad7 said:

BW televisions became extinct not long after the arrival of color TV monitors, however, BW photography has survived.

1- Beyond the nostalgia factor, what do you find compelling about monochrome images?

     Do you find BW images better suited to certain types of photography?  I for instance feel that monochrome images impart a special character to portraits, especially of older individuals or those       with facial hair due to the increased contrast that creases/wrinkles/hair provide.  

2- Do you think dedicated BW cameras like the Q2M provide better quality images than a Q2 shooting in BW?

I thank you for your valuable input in advance.

 

Paul Simon’s “…got a Nikon camera…” though, not a Leica;)

[adan]

I have to say that the whole idea of "the camera has to be a B&W camera" in order to "see in B&W" seems like a fetish - and imply a certain lack of imagination.

For 180 years, photographers (and then cinematographers) had viewing systems that always presented the world in natural color, and for the first 70-100 years of that, they could only capture what they saw in B&W.

Somehow they managed to do that, very successfully. 😆

[Dazzajl]

31 minutes ago, adan said:

have to say that the whole idea of "the camera has to be a B&W camera" in order to "see in B&W" seems like a fetish

Quite correct. 
 

31 minutes ago, adan said:

and imply a certain lack of imagination.

Not correct 😜

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, adan said:

I have to say that the whole idea of "the camera has to be a B&W camera" in order to "see in B&W" seems like a fetish - and imply a certain lack of imagination.

For 180 years, photographers (and then cinematographers) had viewing systems that always presented the world in natural color, and for the first 70-100 years of that, they could only capture what they saw in B&W.

Somehow they managed to do that, very successfully. 😆

Different issue for me. I have zero problem “seeing” in B&W, having grown up with B/W film in the early 70’s.  The benefit of a monochrome digital camera for me is that, like with B/W film, it promotes a B/W mindset by eliminating any distractions by not considering potential color pics. I dismissed the notion of this advantage… thinking that it was just a matter of discipline.. until I actually used one (MM) for an extended period.  I therefore never use any color digital camera when shooting with my Monochoms (added an M10M), just as I never shot simultaneously with B/W and color film.  My VF remains in color, regardless the camera used. While I still convert many color pics to B/W, always intentionally when shooting, the overall shooting experience differs.  Works for me.

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[Matt Stevens]

Regarding souls and carrying two cameras, the only soul I care to serve with photography is my own. And to this end I do carry two cameras: one with a monochrome sensor and one with a color sensor. I often see scenes or subjects that demand to be photographed, way more often that I can actually respond to with a camera. It seems that about half the time I see an image calling to be photographed in monochrome and about half in color. While to the outside observer, it could appear to be random. However, in my experience it's my soul that sees in monochrome or color.

[Matt Stevens]

On 3/27/2025 at 7:03 AM, Fuad7 said:

BW televisions became extinct not long after the arrival of color TV monitors, however, BW photography has survived.

1- Beyond the nostalgia factor, what do you find compelling about monochrome images?

     Do you find BW images better suited to certain types of photography?  I for instance feel that monochrome images impart a special character to portraits, especially of older individuals or those       with facial hair due to the increased contrast that creases/wrinkles/hair provide.  

2- Do you think dedicated BW cameras like the Q2M provide better quality images than a Q2 shooting in BW?

I thank you for your valuable input in advance.

 

In response to the OP's questions: 

Question 1 - My previous post in this thread address this question... The image or scene could be anything and my soul makes the determination as to color or B/W. 

Question 2 - I do think that having a dedicated monochrome camera more effectively serves my soul's artistic interests. In my case I use a Q2M.