Leica APO-Summicron 35 v. Summicron 35

[Drmat]

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3 hours ago, Al Brown said:

I bet you there is.

probably.  Does it really matter?  I am not that pedantic.  Point is, it is a really good lens, but there are lots of really good lenses.  I think we agree on that

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[Stuart Richardson]

8 hours ago, hansvons said:

I’m used to shoot with expensive gear on jobs that are paid and insured. Privately, I would never buy an 8k lens mounted on an 8k camera for walking around let alone shooting in demanding environments “just for fun”. I don't have the funds for that (kids, university, you get the idea) nor do I want that “precious, precious” feeling when taking unpaid pictures. Babying the camera and lenses (eg, reflexive lens-capping) doesn't help shoot great pictures. 

I find the 35mm Summicron ASPH everything one needs to shoot sharp and moody images at f/2 onwards with an outdated camera system that has never been made for high-MTF sensors and lenses due to lacking proper IBIS or AF. The M system’s beauty is the user experience that uniquely motivates me, and the imperfect results with unparalleled charm. But digital  IQ is not its strength (that’s why I prefer film M cameras). For that, Leica provides the APO SL lenses and the respective cameras. That’s why I would never buy an M11 or an M APO lens.

All of that is very personal, of course. Instead of the 35mm APO (brilliant lens, no question), I bought a 44” printer. This gave my photography an incredible push on many levels, similar to what I experienced 30 years ago as a young cameraman when I saw my images on the big screen for the first time. No new lens can do that regardless of how great it is (and you will find out its all about the story, the subject, the light and texture, never about the lens).

You can also buy a 44” printer, several hundred dollars of paper and the 35mm voigtlander APO lanthar and have nearly the same performance as the 35APO along with hundreds of prints. I know I said it above, but I am not just being cheap…I have the 50mm 1.4 asph as well as the 50mm APO lanthar on the M10M and the voigtlander is simply better. It’s miraculous what they are giving for the price and worth considering what brand loyalty means as Leica posts successive record profits and is half owned by Blackstone while the prices for their lenses leap further into the stratosphere as the quality gap between them and their competitors shrinks. If it must be Leica, then for sure the standard summicron asph or summicron v4 both take beautiful images. If image quality alone is the arbiter, then the SL2 or SL3 with 35mm APO SL are even better and also cheaper. Anyway, I am not saying that no one should buy the 35mm APO M or that it isn’t great, it just seems a largely unjustifiable purchase at the current price…to me at least. 

[RexGig0]

8 hours ago, hansvons said:

I’m used to shoot with expensive gear on jobs that are paid and insured. Privately, I would never buy an 8k lens mounted on an 8k camera for walking around let alone shooting in demanding environments “just for fun”. I don't have the funds for that (kids, university, you get the idea) nor do I want that “precious, precious” feeling when taking unpaid pictures. Babying the camera and lenses (eg, reflexive lens-capping) doesn't help shoot great pictures. 

I find the 35mm Summicron ASPH everything one needs to shoot sharp and moody images at f/2 onwards with an outdated camera system that has never been made for high-MTF sensors and lenses due to lacking proper IBIS or AF. The M system’s beauty is the user experience that uniquely motivates me, and the imperfect results with unparalleled charm. But digital  IQ is not its strength (that’s why I prefer film M cameras). For that, Leica provides the APO SL lenses and the respective cameras. That’s why I would never buy an M11 or an M APO lens.

All of that is very personal, of course. Instead of the 35mm APO (brilliant lens, no question), I bought a 44” printer. This gave my photography an incredible push on many levels, similar to what I experienced 30 years ago as a young cameraman when I saw my images on the big screen for the first time. No new lens can do that regardless of how great it is (and you will find out its all about the story, the subject, the light and texture, never about the lens).

There is much wisdom, in this.

[graphlex]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

You can also buy a 44” printer, several hundred dollars of paper and the 35mm voigtlander APO lanthar and have nearly the same performance as the 35APO along with hundreds of prints. I know I said it above, but I am not just being cheap…I have the 50mm 1.4 asph as well as the 50mm APO lanthar on the M10M and the voigtlander is simply better. It’s miraculous what they are giving for the price and worth considering what brand loyalty means as Leica posts successive record profits and is half owned by Blackstone while the prices for their lenses leap further into the stratosphere as the quality gap between them and their competitors shrinks. If it must be Leica, then for sure the standard summicron asph or summicron v4 both take beautiful images. If image quality alone is the arbiter, then the SL2 or SL3 with 35mm APO SL are even better and also cheaper. Anyway, I am not saying that no one should buy the 35mm APO M or that it isn’t great, it just seems a largely unjustifiable purchase at the current price…to me at least. 

In Veblenian terms, the price of the 35 Apo would qualify as “conspicuous waste”, except for the fact that the magnitude of the expenditure will be apparent to practically no one who isn’t a member of this forum.  As sumptuary sins go, it is pretty harmless by today’s standards. 

[Stuart Richardson]

I will also give them the credit that the lenses are still extraordinary. 

[patrickcolpron]

18 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

If it must be Leica, then for sure the standard summicron asph or summicron v4 both take beautiful images. If image quality alone is the arbiter, then the SL2 or SL3 with 35mm APO SL are even better and also cheaper. Anyway, I am not saying that no one should buy the 35mm APO M or that it isn’t great, it just seems a largely unjustifiable purchase at the current price…to me at least. 

Stuart for that sentence, alone, "If it must be Leica, then for sure the standard summicron asph or summicron v4 both take beautiful images." deserved an award but...

then you ruined it with, "If image quality alone is the arbiter, then the SL2 or SL3 with 35mm APO SL are even better and also cheaper." I agree with that statement alas, I loath the SP shooting experience, I'd rather use a smartphone for photography than an SL, oh the infamy, let the vilification begin... 

At the price Leica sell their M cameras and lenses it comes a point we keep paying these rates for the experience an M camera and lenses provide us, the user experience. 
 

In the Summicron 35 world for me the V4 is the "GOAT" for its price point, rendering and form factor, just a great user experience, you ruined it with the SL or did you? 
 

After all you didn't, because you are absolutely right. 

[costa43]

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M glass is disadvantaged by its size when you look for ultimate performance in comparison to other systems so that 7k you spend on the APO gives you the best for its size and limitations. If you want the performance of an APO lens then I would recommend the Voigtlanders. They are a fraction of the cost and you would be hard pushed to see a difference in quality between them and the Leica offering. If you wish to have a little character then any non APO Summicron will give you varying degrees of that. I would recommend the v1 8 element or the v4 over the asph. Totally subjective. 
 

Edited March 23 by costa43

[Stuart Richardson]

3 hours ago, patrickcolpron said:

Stuart for that sentence, alone, "If it must be Leica, then for sure the standard summicron asph or summicron v4 both take beautiful images." deserved an award but...

then you ruined it with, "If image quality alone is the arbiter, then the SL2 or SL3 with 35mm APO SL are even better and also cheaper." I agree with that statement alas, I loath the SP shooting experience, I'd rather use a smartphone for photography than an SL, oh the infamy, let the vilification begin... 

At the price Leica sell their M cameras and lenses it comes a point we keep paying these rates for the experience an M camera and lenses provide us, the user experience. 
 

In the Summicron 35 world for me the V4 is the "GOAT" for its price point, rendering and form factor, just a great user experience, you ruined it with the SL or did you? 
 

After all you didn't, because you are absolutely right. 

I can't say I feel the same way as you. I think the SL2 is one of the best digital cameras I have ever used. If I am looking for a more romantic or tactile experience I shoot medium or large format film. But for my work and for making beautiful prints, nothing digital I have used equals the SL2 and APO Summicrons, not even the S3 or M10M. Of course, we should all use the cameras that speak to us.

[Benoist]

The 35mm APO is undoubtedly the finest lens I've ever used. Its color rendition, sharpness, bokeh, and detail resolution are unmatched. When I switched from Canon late last year, I was initially reluctant to invest in it and ended up purchasing several other lenses, which I've since sold. If you can afford it, don't hesitate—it's actually cheaper in the long run to get it right away rather than trying less performing alternatives.

[RexGig0]

On the broader concept, rather than specifically addressing the APO Summicron-M 35mm ASPH, I am glad that I pursued increasingly optically “perfect” lenses while I was using digital SLR cameras, 2010 to early 2018. I added the Leica M system in April 2018, almost seven years ago, specifically because I wanted to use the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, which I understood was less-perfectly-corrected, optically, than the APO Summicron-M 50mm ASPH. I actually craved the slight optical imperfections, present in the Summilux.

To be clear, I am not saying that lenses with imperfectly-corrected optics are “best” for all shooters. For that matter, some Leica shooters think that the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH is too perfect, or too modern. My point is that that “normal” lenses like the pre-APO Summicron 35 are NOT “of bad quality,” and NOT “unsharp.” Pre-APO and non-APO lenses may well be selected as a simple matter of artistic/creative choice.

In my personal case, I had used optically excellent lenses to photograph evidence of humans’ inhumanity to fellow humans. Evidentiary/forensic/crime scene photography, an added duty, in the final years of my public service career, had nearly destroyed my desire to continue to photograph anything. Upon retirement, I initially turned my attention to photographing birds, butterflies, other insects, and flowers/plants. One review site, where I had read reviews of the Canon 7D and Nikon D3s cameras, and SLR lenses, included reviews of Leica lenses and cameras. I saw something very special in images captured by 50mm and 75mm Summilux-M lenses. Thus began my “conversion” to excellent, but less-than-perfect lenses. It was several years before I could justify the expense of acquiring my pre-owned Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, and a new M10 camera.

On the matter of the APO Summicron-M 35mm ASPH, itself, I do appreciate its optical qualities, when I see images that have been posted on-line. Lovely images! Perhaps, someday, I will visit a Leica store, or other well-stocked camera store, where I can test-shoot this lens, at which time I may decide that its handling qualities, plus its sharpness of in-focus areas, and lovely rendering of background blur, will spark a sufficiently-strong desire to spend such a considerable sum on a 35mm lens. (I did not know, with certainty, that I truly desired my first M lens, the Summilux-M 50 ASPH, until I had handled it, and test-shot with it, on pre-owned and demonstrator M9 and M Type 240 cameras, at a Leica dealer.) I cannot justify spending ~$8K US, on a lens, outright, but may be about to sell several large, significantly expensive SLR lenses, simply as a matter of “down-sizing,” and may then have enough cash to start seriously funding another 35mm M lens.

Edited March 24 by RexGig0

[hansvons]

18 hours ago, patrickcolpron said:

In the Summicron 35 world for me the V4 is the "GOAT" for its price point, rendering and form factor, just a great user experience,

I know that many feel this way—and for good measure. The V4 is not too soft at full aperture, shows tons of personality, and has an unbeatable form factor in the M world. However, the same goes for its successor, the ASPH version, which Leica still sells.

Interestingly, the V5 ASPH is basically the same lens in terms of rendering and character despite a very different design. What distinguishes it most from its predecessor is its higher sharpness/resolution at full aperture, and it has already reached full performance just shy of f/4. However, personality-wise, it shows a similar bent focal plane between f/2 and f/2.8, which is almost gone at f/4. It flares nicely like its older sibling. And it renders the same old-school flatness, which I love so much about that lens. Contrast is a tad better, and so is colour reproduction. 

You are well off with either lens, of course. The V4 has the famous name King of Bokeh, and the V5 has the affix ASPH, which, for many, Leicaristi is a synonym for "clinical". Both attributes are bollocks, of course. Neither is the V4 a bokeh king nor renders the V5 clinical images. 

[Peter H]

On 3/23/2025 at 5:54 AM, Al Brown said:

Yes, it matters to some. Nothing wrong with fanboy pep talk, but I love to have options on the table based on actual facts. 

Perhaps he's right though. Rather depends on whether size is one of your criteria.

[la1402]

I am fortunate to own the APO and still cling on to the new Summilux. I prefer the APO for its size and super smooth bokeh - the Lux can be pretty harsh. A lens I regret selling was the Summicron V4. I tried to be reasonable... The v4 has such a great form factor, is surprisingly sharp and has a very special way of rendering. Not bocause of Bokeh - it certainly is not the king of that.  I did own both the Summicron ASPH v1 and the Voightländer Ulton and between those would always prefer the Ultron for better clarity, sharpness and flare handiling. Not saying the Summicron ASPH is bad at all - for the price it just does nothing very special, and flares like hell. The Summilux is on its way out.

[Tseg]

I've been a "hobbyist" for several decades, getting into photography about 15 years ago, but only shifting to Leica within the past year.   I'm still of the camp that a great photographer can take a great picture with an iPhone.   For me, what I do know, is getting to "end game" sooner rather than later is the best course of action as it saves both money and time in the long run.   What I do consider about the items I've acquired is "How does it make ME feel", and "How does it motivate ME to use it", is where the value is realized for ME.   For heirloom quality items, price becomes less important.   If I am debating between a Summicron and an APO Summicron, if I believe the APO is even a little bit more rewarding, as a hobbyist I will buy it, knowing I would intend to keep it the rest of my life.   I've been reading this thread as I have been on the fence for weeks debating between the 35mm APO and 35mm Steel Rim Reissue.   At some point I may end up with both, but which will keep me satisfied longer with my M11-D?   I'm leaning towards the APO.   There is A LOT that can be done in post-processing to degrade image quality... a lot less that can be done to improve image quality.   With a D camera I figure the APO will give me fewer surprises where the Steel Rim will give me more surprises, good and bad.  While I can appreciate a good surprise, my personality generally does not seek them out... although my acquisition of an M11-D as my first M camera was bold for me, and I've been very happy with that decision... which is why the Steel Rim is still in play.

[hansvons]

16 hours ago, Tseg said:

  For me, what I do know, is getting to "end game" sooner rather than later is the best course of action as it saves both money and time in the long run.

That’s a wise insight—if you have the funds. If money wasn’t an objection I’d do exactly that. Buy the M11-D (the most Leica digital Leica, you got that already), purchase the 35mm APO, and take it from there.

I did the same, only I’m mostly a film guy in Leica M land. Because the APO is (almost) meaningless for film (and too expensive for where I go) I got right from the start a pair of then freshly CLAed M6/4P, the 35mm Summicron ASPH and its sibling from the Summarit range (flares less, more similar to the APO). I also own the Nokton f/1.4 V2 of the same focal length but rarely use it. It’s a 95% Steel Rim clone but doesn’t add much to my photography (the Summicron ASPH flares as nicely but is more than usable at f/2). Professionally (fashion and reportage/events) I use the film Ms and an SL2-S paired with the 35mm SL APO. Digitally, it can’t get better, but I do get why people go the M route for digital photography.

Happy shooting.

Edited May 18 by hansvons

[Kim Dahl]

I have the first Leica MD - and I have the 35 APO. It's a combination like no other I've seen with M lenses. And it's a good "investment" I don't know. But I haven't regretted my purchase. In fact, the APO one, together with an old Leica 24 mm f2.8, are the most used and I don't think I'll invest more. Mostly used even though my Q3 has taken over a lot. So I'm enough for "technically perfect" pictures. Because as you write, it's not difficult to make a good picture "imperfect". The advantage is you can do that with all the pictures you want and return to the perfect one.

[Kiwimac]

I had the standard 35 Lux. Traded it for the Apo Cron. 
 

Sadly was dim enough to sell it. Even now I’m being offered a very very nice limited version of the 50 Apo and I’m still wondering whether I should buy the 35 Apo again instead. 
 

I cannot quite put my finger on what it is about that lens (and apparently also the 50 Apo although I’ve not used it yet) but I think it’s this: it neither adds nor takes away anything whatsoever to/from the image. 
 

All the other lenses have something that they do - they add glow, they warm the image, they fade the background especially well - that sort of thing. 
 

The Apo 35 and 50 simply…. Don’t. 
 

It’s like viewing the scene with perfect 20/20 vision through the cleanest, most transparent window you can imagine. 
 

This is not, of course, to detract from the other lenses. Each has a place and a use case which you may have.  It is the best way I can describe the difference though. 

[Smudgerer]

This 35 APO "thing" is a real PITA........Sure I know it's a fine lens, I even had one of my regular dealerships loan me one for a week last year confident that I'd buy the Holy Grail of M35 lenses afterwards, and why not? That "carrot" trick paid off with another dealer with the M11-D, so a no brainier on their part, but I didn't buy it, turned it in like a rental Lamborghini and drove off in a Citroen.

Why? Well I do have the Summicron 35 V4 and the slightly later 35 ASPH version and whilst they may for some who own lens testing gear be lacking as far as sharpness, clarity and that ridiculous Bokeh obsession it for me was still too big a lens on an M when compared with my lesser value Summicrons, and the Summilux SR re-issue too. In fact I found that after f2.8 the SR 'Lux looked very much like the 35 APO and closer still after f4. The "lesser" Summicrons are still magic on a M body, perfectly sized, perfect haptics and with film and digital I can get A1 size prints from any of the three of them with no downsides, ( you cannot really judge any lens / camera's quality of output if you don't print, Hansons made the good choice in going for his LF printer ).

 

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