S4 speculations

[Einst_Stein]

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48 minutes ago, Pieter12 said:

And how does one assume that a Leica video camera would be relatively affordable?

No, he won't! No body will!

[BernardC]

12 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

And how does one assume that a Leica video camera would be relatively affordable?

It's all relative. As a mentor told me many years ago: "if you hail a cab and it's a $20,000 car no one bats an eye. If you call a plumber and they have $50,000 invested in their van it's expected. And yet people are surprised by how much a Hasselblad costs." (adjust for inflation, this was many years ago).

[Pieter12]

4 hours ago, BernardC said:

It's all relative. As a mentor told me many years ago: "if you hail a cab and it's a $20,000 car no one bats an eye. If you call a plumber and they have $50,000 invested in their van it's expected. And yet people are surprised by how much a Hasselblad costs." (adjust for inflation, this was many years ago).

That is not an answer.

[frame-it]

On 8/20/2025 at 12:43 AM, Stef63 said:

@BernardC The way it’s phrased gives the impression that you’re very certain and have information others might not. If that’s the case, it would be great if you could confirm. 

though the Leica snails will have more to think about, as the new Hasselblad X series is coming on tuesday 26th

[helged]

8 hours ago, frame-it said:

though the Leica snails will have more to think about, as the new Hasselblad X series is coming on tuesday 26th

Interesting, DJI Lidar.

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[pgh]

On 8/19/2025 at 8:58 AM, BernardC said:

These days it's very rare to find a commercial or art project that doesn't make use of both stills and video

But it’s still quite common to find those done by two different people with two different tools. Not as common as it used to be, but I’d be frustrated if Leica trying to make video sing in a camera meant for stills was what was holding it back. But maybe I’m in the rare minority who has less than zero interest in video and if/when a client brings it up I say “sure! I know a great additional person to do good work on that additional job!”

[BernardC]

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11 hours ago, pgh said:

I’d be frustrated if Leica trying to make video sing in a camera meant for stills was what was holding it back.

What is being "held back" exactly? Leica hasn't provided a date, and even their hints point to next year at the earliest.

I am not suggesting that every S4 customer has to use video. It will be a great stills camera.

However, there are a lot of artists and commercial shooters who want/need to create video and stills, and who've been doing it for their whole career. It would be a shame if that market was ignored by Leica, especially since Leica has served them so well for the past decade. What I'm saying is that the S4 should do for medium format what the original SL did for "full frame": offer a camera that has no direct competitors (at launch) and resets the expectations of what a medium format camera can be. If they do offer video, as I think they should, it shouldn't be an afterthought like it is with MF competitors.

[pgh]

21 minutes ago, BernardC said:

What is being "held back" exactly? Leica hasn't provided a date, and even their hints point to next year at the earliest.

I am not suggesting that every S4 customer has to use video. It will be a great stills camera.

However, there are a lot of artists and commercial shooters who want/need to create video and stills, and who've been doing it for their whole career. It would be a shame if that market was ignored by Leica, especially since Leica has served them so well for the past decade. What I'm saying is that the S4 should do for medium format what the original SL did for "full frame": offer a camera that has no direct competitors (at launch) and resets the expectations of what a medium format camera can be. If they do offer video, as I think they should, it shouldn't be an afterthought like it is with MF competitors.

It's just speculation, but if the development of the incorporation of high quality video in the same camera is what is (seemingly) pushing back development times, for me, I think that's a waste. 

I get that there is a market for hybrid shooters, but at this level of professionalism I don't think it's silly to have two separate, specific cameras do the separate, specific high end work.

But that's just me, and I'm admittedly just not a fan of the fusion of still and moving image generally. When I started in newspapers they tried to get all of us to adopt multimedia and video as some sort of savior of a dying industry and it was absurd and led to so much burnout and so.much.bad.work. The mediums are (and have always been, to my mind) two separate mediums with the best work in either one done by people who dedicate themselves to one of them and the commercial push to make people do both has very seldomly lead to something that seems of a high quality (production value aside). I'll stop my rants here 😃 

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, pgh said:

It's just speculation, but if the development of the incorporation of high quality video in the same camera is what is (seemingly) pushing back development times, for me, I think that's a waste. 

I haven't heard any rumours that the camera has been "pushed back." Maybe people would like it to be out already, but that doesn't mean it's been pushed back.

I suspect that most of the development time has been spent on lenses. The hardware and software are based on the SL3/M11/Lumix platform, so we'll get the latest and greatest. The other critical item is the sensor, but that shouldn't be late unless there are some serious issues at their supplier.

[Stef63]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

The hardware and software are based on the SL3/M11/Lumix platform, so we'll get the latest and greatest. 

You’re presenting this again as if it were confirmed “inner circle” knowledge. But just for context: Leica’s own May 2022 press release states that the SL3 software was indeed co-developed with Panasonic, with the Maestro IV processor described as central to the hardware–software platform.

The M11, introduced earlier that same year, runs on Maestro III, and there is no indication anywhere that its firmware was co-developed with Panasonic. So it seems very unlikely that the new MF platform would carry traces of M11 software, let alone Maestro III hardware.  The UI of SL3 and M11 might indeed look similar, but that is the case also for the recent iteration of the DLux.  That does not mean the software/hardware foundation is the same. And certainly does not mean Leica will use it for its next MF... if it ever comes to market. Do not forget what they finally did with the R. 

That said—please do keep speculating. Always entertaining to read!

[BernardC]

13 minutes ago, Stef63 said:

You’re presenting this again as if it were confirmed “inner circle” knowledge. But just for context: Leica’s own May 2022 press release states that the SL3 software was indeed co-developed with Panasonic, with the Maestro IV processor described as central to the hardware–software platform.

Leica has been very clear: the Maestro processor is now co-developed with Panasonic. You found the press release. What is your reason to believe that this is no longer the case?

It's not impossible that the S4 will use a completely different processor family, but it is unlikely. It's one of the highest-performing processors on the market, with 40fps continuous at 40MP in this year's Lumix models.

As you say, we are all speculating. If the S4 uses a completely new processor with a different architecture (or if it reverts to the old Fujitsu processor), you can wear that as a feather in your cap. 

My main point was that video is something Leica has done very well for a decade. Implementing an existing feature on the same architecture shouldn't be a problem. Not that there is a problem, as far as any of us knows. Manufacturing a new lens line is a bigger lift.

[Stef63]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

The hardware and software are based on the SL3/M11/Lumix platform, so we'll get the latest and greatest.

I think I only said it is unlikely the next MF would carry traces of the M11 software or the Maestro III.  

[Einst_Stein]

26 minutes ago, Stef63 said:

I think I only said it is unlikely the next MF would carry traces of the M11 software or the Maestro III.  

Speculate whatever you like. Without facts, who knows who is more correct!

But it might be more reasonable to speculate that Leica would leverage whatever in their convenience. After all, computing hardware and software and electronic is not Leica's specialty, and there is not much juice to invent a new wheel. 

It would also make sense to speculate that the Leica next MF would have same or very similar user interface of SL system. So leverage anytihng from SL would be a perfact strategy.

I don't see adding video is essential to such as top end MF camera. However, Leica needs to make a compelling differentiation from the others. Leica always do, at least in their top end offerings.

What spots can Leica do? Video? maybe! Techincal shooting? personally I hope so. Larger format? Film capable hybrid? unlikely. What else?

[BernardC]

25 minutes ago, Stef63 said:

I think I only said it is unlikely the next MF would carry traces of the M11 software or the Maestro III.  

Of course. That's not the latest version of the software or hardware. They wouldn't go back to a 2021 baseline. Some code is probably still around, but the baseline will include everything that has happened since like the Q3, SL3, SL3-S, plus any other code that Panasonic and Leica have contributed.  Sorry, it's one of those things that seems self-evident to me, but not to everyone.

[costa43]

Not sure Leica cares but the new X2D ii is priced at 7200 Euro. That is very aggressive pricing for this market. 

Edited August 26 by costa43

[helged]

30 minutes ago, costa43 said:

Not sure Leica cares but the new X2D ii is priced at 7200 Euro. That is very aggressive pricing for this market. 

+1 for a 'reasonable' cost of X2Dii!

It will be a big and unexpected surprise if the selling point of S4 is the price...! Seamless integration of existing S-lenses, as well as L-, M- and R-mount lenses via adapters will clearly be unique to S4, particularly for those already using Leica. A new line of mirrorless S-lenses will be top-class & tempting, but S4 + adapter(s) can be of interest for existing S- og L-mount shooters, at least as long as S4 isn't too highly priced. I would think.

For Leica users, and in particular L-mount users, an interesting question is the degree to which S4 differentiates itself from eg the 60MP SL3-body. A larger sensor, clearly, but what more?

[costa43]

25 minutes ago, helged said:

+1 for a 'reasonable' cost of X2Dii!

It will be a big and unexpected surprise if the selling point of S4 is the price...! Seamless integration of existing S-lenses, as well as L-, M- and R-mount lenses via adapters will clearly be unique to S4, particularly for those already using Leica. A new line of mirrorless S-lenses will be top-class & tempting, but S4 + adapter(s) can be of interest for existing S- og L-mount shooters, at least as long as S4 isn't too highly priced. I would think.

For Leica users, and in particular L-mount users, an interesting question is the degree to which S4 differentiates itself from eg the 60MP SL3-body. A larger sensor, clearly, but what more?

I do not think they can offer much more besides the image quality bump and maybe a better user experience when it comes to battery life, dials and EVF. I would assume that the autofocus will be inferior to the SL3 and the cost a fair bit more but nowhere near as high as the S3. Besides the compatibility with the SL lenses, I think the major draw with an S4 is it's ruggedness. You would think Leica will make it pretty indestructable. The Hasselblad is not even IP rated against the elements, which would be a concern for me.

[Stuart Richardson]

1 hour ago, helged said:

+1 for a 'reasonable' cost of X2Dii!

It will be a big and unexpected surprise if the selling point of S4 is the price...! Seamless integration of existing S-lenses, as well as L-, M- and R-mount lenses via adapters will clearly be unique to S4, particularly for those already using Leica. A new line of mirrorless S-lenses will be top-class & tempting, but S4 + adapter(s) can be of interest for existing S- og L-mount shooters, at least as long as S4 isn't too highly priced. I would think.

For Leica users, and in particular L-mount users, an interesting question is the degree to which S4 differentiates itself from eg the 60MP SL3-body. A larger sensor, clearly, but what more?

I would be shocked if the price was below 10,000 euros. Leica has always had pricing hubris...they essentially killed the first S system with it (coming out at 23,000 USD without a lens in 2008), and I am sure they will do it again. The question is more to what degree will it be overpriced, not whether it will be. I cannot imagine in a world in which the Leica costs the same as the Hasselblad and Fuji. To be fair to them, I don't think it should be, as they are better made in my experience. But what the premium will be is more the question. I think typically, it is always more than what I think it should be. So in that context, my ballpark guess would be 15,000 euros, which is roughly double the SL models and still slightly less than the S3 was. I think Leica's strategy is that in general they would rather sell fewer units at a higher price than more units at an aggressive price. They are, for better or for worse, fully entrenched as a luxury brand now, and making a fairly priced camera that could sell to a wider market is not really their brand identity.

Meanwhile, it seems like Hasselblad is basically a brand boosting division of DJI at this point. The parts are all made elsewhere and assembled by 30 people in Sweden (as of 2018). I am not saying they are not good cameras, just that I think that their costs are probably lower. Leica also sources much of their cameras elsewhere and assemble in Germany, but much of the initial work is done in Portugal. I am not sure where it is for Hasselblad, but given their owner, it certainly would make sense if it were China. They of course previously had things made by Fuji and Sony, so who knows.  But more importantly, I think Hasselblad, other than their Lunar/Stellar debacle, has been more of a premium engineering company with some luxury tendencies, whereas Leica has transformed into a luxury company with a precision engineering tendency. I think Hasselblad is probably still trying to aggressively build market share, where Leica is raking in a lot of cash with the Q and M cameras and their licensing projects, so are probably content to overprice their premium products. 

[BernardC]

AF performance should be the same as, or better than, the SL3 with the same lenses, assuming that the processor is faster and that the sensor's PDAF is similar. We don't know if the new lenses will be optimized for fast AF. They'll surely be faster than the S lenses, but accuracy and sharpness may be prioritized over raw speed. That's the case with the APO-Summicron-L lenses (L-Mount) which are slower than non-APO designs.

One feature I would love to see in the S4 is a vertical crop for L-Mount lenses. That would be very convenient when you are switching between portrait and landscape compositions quickly. Add a few leaf shutter lenses and every wedding/event photographer will want one.

I've said it before, I think the price should be similar to the M: higher than the X2d, GFX, and SL3, but not as much as the S bodies were at launch. Leica might have a different opinion!

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[helged]

29 minutes ago, BernardC said:

AF performance should be the same as, or better than, the SL3 with the same lenses, assuming that the processor is faster and that the sensor's PDAF is similar. We don't know if the new lenses will be optimized for fast AF. They'll surely be faster than the S lenses, but accuracy and sharpness may be prioritized over raw speed. That's the case with the APO-Summicron-L lenses (L-Mount) which are slower than non-APO designs.

One feature I would love to see in the S4 is a vertical crop for L-Mount lenses. That would be very convenient when you are switching between portrait and landscape compositions quickly. Add a few leaf shutter lenses and every wedding/event photographer will want one.

I've said it before, I think the price should be similar to the M: higher than the X2d, GFX, and SL3, but not as much as the S bodies were at launch. Leica might have a different opinion!

What about a more square sensor format than 2:3? In this way, a larger part of the available image circle of eg L-mount lenses can be used. Would be interesting, I think (but more likely, Leica will keep going with their 2:3-ratio; availability of squarish sensors are also a moment, clearly).

Edited August 26 by helged