Is Leica losing its' touch with new releases?

[CptSlevin]

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Hello!
I would like to start a controversial topic.
Latest Leica releases except from Q3, Q3 43 (which are very hard to spoil) are kind of a mixed bag.

Leica M11 huge freezing issues, unacceptable level of miscommunication and problem solving with bricking cameras.
For a main flagship camera it's very bad reputational achievement on the level of M9 CCD corrosion issue.

Leica SL3 was a fairly nice launch, but more to be desired with the camera, firmware issues, not present functions which are present in SL2, AF speed didn't hit any stars, horrendous EVF blackouts.
I had a feeling like SL3 was rushed to market due to competition with Panasonic and camera is still in beta.

Leica SL3S is on another level of disappointment, it's past gen camera (refurbished Lumix S5IIX) with less hybrid features which can't compete with SL2S, because of the price factor, lack of new features, same sensor, worse IBIS.
It didn't have any improvements except from AF which is still in beta stage and doesn't live up to other manufacturers.

I know that Leica is accumulating the Highest Revenue in Its Entire 100-Year History, but at what cost?
https://petapixel.com/2024/11/20/leica-just-recorded-the-highest-revenue-in-its-entire-100-year-history/

Quality of their releases is mediocre at best, they don't innovate, they have low QC (used to be stellar) and a lot of issues with firmware that can brick cameras.
I still see people buying used M10s because they are reliable, old lenses like summiluxes had more magic in their optical schemes, new lenses tend to be clinical in order to resolve 60mp sensors.

Your opinion?

Edited February 15 by CptSlevin

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[Eoin]

You forgot to mention the M8 UV/IR debacle 😜.

In fairness, I have not experienced any situation since the M8 in which my Leica cameras let me down or got in the way of capturing an image.
I shoot M10, M10-R and M11-M primarily, Q2M for convenience and SL2/SL2-S for everything else. Sure, they are not bleeding edge technology, but at the same time they never get in the way of how I like to enjoy my photography. 

 

[Al Brown]

2 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

they have low QC (used to be stellar)

Where did you draw that conclusion from? Any information you can share on former stellar QC?

[Al Brown]

22 minutes ago, Eoin said:

n fairness, I have not experienced any situation since the M8 in which my Leica cameras let me down or got in the way of capturing an image.
 

Maybe you did not but you are statistically irrelevant - if you have not that does not mean others have not. There are hundreds that were let down and have had faulty items gotten in their way.

[Chris W]

2 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

Quality of their releases is mediocre at best, they don't innovate, they have low QC (used to be stellar) and a lot of issues with firmware that can brick cameras.
I still see people buying used M10s because they are reliable, old lenses like summiluxes had more magic in their optical schemes, new lenses tend to be clinical in order to resolve 60mp sensors.

Your opinion?

You're making g the same points voiced by many YouTubers who don't understand Leica.

The M10 is a fantastic camera by the way. There is no need to 'innovate' the M line. 

There are hundreds of M mount lenses available, from classics, to brand new, from Light Lens Labs to Zeiss to Voigtlander to Leica.

One camera (M11) has some software issues that will be ironed out.

 

[costa43]

Leica makes the best cameras in the world to use (for me). I love them dearly, all of the range is great in its own way but there have been teething problems with other releases throughout the years so I’m not sure that the QC has changed that much! I do think part of the challenge that they have faced recently is managing the huge surge in demand.

Record profits means they are not going away anytime soon which is good for us fans in the long term. My hope is that the aftercare will continue to be invested in and the timescales are improved for repairs/CLAs. I’d also love for them to continue making classic digital M rangefinders with base plates, classic metering and very simple operation.

Edited February 15 by costa43

[jaapv]

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1 hour ago, Eoin said:

You forgot to mention the M8 UV/IR debacle 😜.

In fairness, I have not experienced any situation since the M8 in which my Leica cameras let me down or got in the way of capturing an image.
I shoot M10, M10-R and M11-M primarily, Q2M for convenience and SL2/SL2-S for everything else. Sure, they are not bleeding edge technology, but at the same time they never get in the way of how I like to enjoy my photography. 

 

I would hesitate to call that a debacle. It is a real technical issue of designing on the brink of what is possible and Leica was not alone. The D70 and RX1 for instance were similarly affected but the reaction of the customer base was far more violent with Leica. And they were the only brand to resolve the issue - within a couple of months-  both by sending out filters and firmware adaptations. I had one of the very first M8 cameras a couple of weeks before the official release, identified the issue within a few hours and bought a filter the next day - no letdown at all for me. It was the same for other forum members and discussed extensively. 
The only thing one can say is that due to the dire financial straits that Leica was in then,  they brought out a camera that needed to be beta tested. And made it the saviour of the company. 

[jaapv]

This thread once again misuses the term QC. That has nothing to do with design flaws or indeed design misunderstandings by the customer. 
The meaning is checking whether the end product conforms to the manufacturing parameters, which BTW is near impossible to implement for 100% on a handbuilt product Human error can never be excluded  

What the OP means is whether the product design delivers the expected result and is free of design flaws That is a matter of the alpha and beta testing. Members of the forum who participate might comment there, within their NDA of course. 

[FrozenInTime]

Sadly many lens release have also suffered from issues:.

Lens + filter + hood should all fit together and without vignetting !

This I blame on inexperienced engineers not understanding how product is used and rely too heavily on CAD design and visualisation tools.

I also blame modern management structures that treat engineering resources as contractors that can be switched between projects; the engineering team lead role that held systems together being replaced with non-technical MBA hires that push projects forward. ( This is my general view of industry, so no Leica specific knowledge ).

[jaapv]

Leica still works with product-dedicated design teams. We must not confuse design errors with design choices that do not conform to the customer’s wishes. 

[Chris W]

Agreed. My 2023 car has a couple of annoyances. These were design choices, not mistakes. How they ended up playing out in the real world WAS a mistake, but it was a considered choice by the design engineers.

[costa43]

Very valid points, most ‘Issues’ were design choices and not quality control. 

[Al Brown]

Nah, I am pretty sure that the OP also meant quality control issues on Leica M. You know, not just design implementation flaws like new Steel Rim vignetting sun hood with filters or freezing firmware, but actual quality control issues the likes of collapsing diaphragm blades on 35 FLE CF, paint chipping on various (even special) editions, film scratching pressure plates and many others we discussed ad nauseam here. Nobody is too old not to remember those, most were recent, from the past  4-5 years.

Edited February 15 by Al Brown

[hansvons]

6 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

Your opinion?

Why do you bother shooting with Leica cameras? Lots of options out there. 

 

6 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

know that Leica is accumulating the Highest Revenue in Its Entire 100-Year History, but at what cost?

Looks like they do some things right. 

 

6 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

 ... new lenses tend to be clinical in order to resolve 60mp sensors.

It is a misconception that a lens can or cannot resolve a sensor. The resolving power of high-resolving lenses does help high-resolving sensors show their potential, but it is not "wasted" on low-resolving sensors either.

Consider the number one as a hypothetical MTF/resolving optimum (which can never be reached). Assuming the 60MP is a high 0.8, and the lens is 0.5 (e.g., an older Summilux at f/4), the sum is 0.4. Conversely, combine an older 24MP sensor in a medium 0.6 with a modern APO M lens with a hypothetical 0.8. Your resolving power will be slightly higher at 0,48. Assume you use the same APO lens with a 60Mp sensor; in our example, the combined resolving/MTF power will be in the 0.64 ballpark.

This also applies to low-resolving/low-MTF media such as 35mm film, usually way below 24MP. The resolving difference between a low-resolving Steel Rim and a modern ASPH Summicron or FLE Summilux at f/2 is easy to spot on larger prints, even for the untrained eye. 

Edited February 15 by hansvons

[Jeff S]

7 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

Leica M11 huge freezing issues, unacceptable level of miscommunication and problem solving with bricking cameras.
For a main flagship camera it's very bad reputational achievement on the level of M9 CCD corrosion issue.

 

You joined the forum 8 years after the M9 launch, which was followed by as many or more forum complaints as the M11…color problems galore, cracked sensors, red edge concerns, buffer issues, SD card compatibility problems, freezing issues (yes), and more. Members were going nuts. These were all addressed in due time, the complaints were forgotten or unknown to newer users and, until the corrosion problems, the M9 was beloved by many, ironically even praised for its color rendering by many of the same people who initially hated it.

Live long enough, with a good memory, and you’ll gain some useful perspective. Teething issues abound, not unexpectedly for a small company with a lot of human involvement in the build process.

Lack of Company communication with customers/forum members regarding these type of issues has also been a tradition, with only a few exceptions (the M9 sensor corrosion, etc), when warranted.

Edited February 15 by Jeff S

[Al Brown]

7 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

new lenses tend to be clinical in order to resolve 60mp sensors.

Lenses do not resolve sensors. Bigger sensors only bring out lens flaws more.

[Eoin]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

I would hesitate to call that a debacle. It is a real technical issue of designing on the brink of what is possible and Leica was not alone. The D70 and RX1 for instance were similarly affected but the reaction of the customer base was far more violent with Leica. And they were the only brand to resolve the issue - within a couple of months-  both by sending out filters and firmware adaptations. I had one of the very first M8 cameras a couple of weeks before the official release, identified the issue within a few hours and bought a filter the next day - no letdown at all for me. It was the same for other forum members and discussed extensively. 
The only thing one can say is that due to the dire financial straits that Leica was in then,  they brought out a camera that needed to be beta tested. And made it the saviour of the company. 

I also had one of the first batch of M8 that required 3 trips back to Leica for various red lines that appeared on the sensor. In the end Leica replaced it with a new M8.2.

I will concede Leica's customer service at that time was top notch, but it left doubts in my mind as to the reliability of the M8 in general and I sold mine. I ignored the M9 (just as well with the corrosion), I ignored the M2xx series (too fat) and I finally returned to the Leica fold on the launch of the M10. 

So when I consider the cost to Leica of the 2 free UV/IR filters, the cost to me for filters for my other lenses, the generous 30% discount on any new lens of ones choice (Noctilux in my case) and the transport back and forth for my M8 and the replacement M8.2 ... I have no hesitation in calling it a debacle, from both Leica's and my own perspective at that time. 

 

As always Jaap YMMV

 

5 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Maybe you did not but you are statistically irrelevant - if you have not that does not mean others have not. There are hundreds that were let down and have had faulty items gotten in their way.

😂 I'm very happy / relieved to be irrelevant.

[Al Brown]

2 minutes ago, Eoin said:

😂 I'm very happy / relieved to be irrelevant.

It was not meant in a bad way. It is a common problem of every internet forum: Somebody exposes a factual problem and then the first responders are like "What? But mine never does that/I have never had that problem"... what help does that bring in the long term to the solution of initial exposed problem?

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[Eoin]

1 minute ago, Al Brown said:

It was not meant in a bad way. It is a common problem of every internet forum: Somebody exposes a factual problem and then the first responders are like "What? But mine never does that/I have never had that problem"... what help does that bring in the long term to the solution of initial exposed problem?

😂 Believe me, no offence taken, I was just amused at being called irrelevant. 

Not trying to be argumentative, but the "I don't have that problem posts" are relevant, it prompts discussion and analysis and can help identify the cause of a users problem such as bad memory card or identify some other deeper issue that is not generally common in the user base.

At the end of the day, we seem (mostly 😜) to enjoy the Leica cameras and lenses and we often rely on each other for advice or perspective solutions to get the most out of this hobby. 

My response, which was first, was to point out the omission of the M8 from the list of "problems" 

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Nah, I am pretty sure that the OP also meant quality control issues on Leica M. You know, not just design implementation flaws like new Steel Rim vignetting sun hood with filters or freezing firmware, but actual quality control issues the likes of collapsing diaphragm blades on 35 FLE CF, paint chipping on various (even special) editions, film scratching pressure plates and many others we discussed ad nauseam here. Nobody is too old not to remember those, most were recent, from the past  4-5 years.

Umm… How can a during production or an end-of-assembly check find things like chipped paint or a later aperture failure? That has nothing to do with quality control. It can never find faults that occur after the camera has shipped.