HOW YOU CHOOSE YELLOW/ORANGE FILTER FOR B&W FILMS?

[Einst_Stein]

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I am trying to summary when to use yellow filter and when orange for beginners. 

I tend to think:

    1: blue sky with cloud => yellow.

    2: cloudy sky, no blue => orange. 

What do you think? Thanks.

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[erl]

First decision: Is the sky your subject, or something else?

Second decision: How will the use of either filter affect the subject below the sky?

Put another way, do you want to darken or lighten the sky?

Sometimes the subject is best delineated by a plain/clear sky, so no filter, or even a Blue filter.

IMO: A yellow filter 'all the time' for B&W photography. There are many exceptions. Use of a Red filter mostly will exaggerate how dark the sky is making fluffy white clouds  'scream' in your image. An orange filter sits between the Yellow & Red filter. Beyond this knowledge, you need to experiment as results are a matter of personal taste. Remember, everything in your frame has a colour and therefore may also be affected by the filter.

It's fun trying them all! 

[Einst_Stein]

After seeing beginner’s picture, I think it is safer to stay with yellow #8. Leave orange filter in the next step. 

[250swb]

It isn't all about clouds. A yellow generally filter increases contrast, it also lightens leaves, a green filter also lightens leaves but can also add texture to skin for portraits of men or darken the lips of a woman, an orange filter can cut through haze, a blue filter can accentuate the appearance of fog, etc. 

[pippy]

As has been said there is more to consider than the sky when using colour contrast filters and the only way to understand what they do is to use them with a view to finding out exactly what each colour will do.

The following pics weren't taken to illustrate this point but they might shed some light on the matter. Snaps were taken on different bodies with different lenses and originally one contained much more subject-matter but has been cropped to approximate the same F-o-View as the other.

First was shot on an M-D Typ-262. 28mm Elmarit asph and Circular Polarizing filter. When used in 'landscape' photography the Pola. is commonly used to darken blue skies in a manner similar to Yellow / Orange / Red filters when shooting in monochrome. Here it helps to give clear separation between the azure sky and the strong yellow of the pylons of the O2 Dome;

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If this image is converted into monochrome, however, the separation between sky and pylons is noticeably reduced;

 

This next image was shot with an M Monochrom / 35mm Summaron / Leitz Red filter. The Red filter will darken the blue of the sky but will lighten the yellow of the pylons;

 

Hopefully these snaps will go some way to illustrate the importance of knowing whether the scene being photographed is intended to be shown in Colour or Black and White and the choice of which filters will be most suitable in each case.

Philip.

 

 

 

[pegelli]

In the sequence yellow => orange => red the contrast between clouds and blue sky will increase

You can easily simulate this effect by taking a colour photo and start playing with the colour mixer when converting to B&W by reducing the complementary colours of yellow, orange and red

But even w/o sky the effect of a filter can be dramatic for B&W film (and B&W sensors) because then you can't play with the colour mixer to change how the colours translate to grey values.

Here's an extreme example of the difference between no filter and an orange filter on my M246M without any sky/clouds (the door is green, the rim of the no parking sign is red/orange and the center is blue

First no filter:

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There's hardly separation between the green of the door and the red/orange of the rim, and the blue becomes quite pale/light.

 

Now with a Leitz E39 orange filter

The green became a bit darker, the orange/red rim a lot brighter and the inner blue very dark.

These type of examples can help a lot in "visualising" the resulting grey density of all the colours in the scene, not just the effect on blue sky and clouds. Obviously the learning curve with film will be slower as compared to using the direct feedback of a digital monochrom camera, but the principles remain the same.

Both photo's M246M + Elmarit 90/2.8 (ELRIM)

Edited February 12 by pegelli

[01af]

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The problem with orange and, even more so, red filters in pictorial photography is: they tend to destroy tonal separation and hence, detail rendition in the greens (trees, grass, bushes, etc.) and in the shadows. Dark shadows under a blue sky will become even darker with orange and red filters—as demonstrated here (see lower left corner). So in most cases, yellow filters (medium #8, medium-dark #12, and dark #15) will yield nicer, more balanced results than orange #22 or red #25, #29. My favourite is #12. Use orange and red filters only if the dramatic effect in the sky is more important than any subtleties in the shadows ... or greens.

A very nice filter for B&W landscape photosgraphy in spring and early summer is yellow-green #11. It will emphasize blue skies slightly and at the same time enhance nature's fresh greens.

The general rule is: a colour filter on black-and-white film will brighten the tones for its own colour and darken the tones for the complementary colour. And brightening generally means improving tonal separation and visual detail rendition; darkening generally means murkier rendition.

Edited February 12 by 01af

[Einst_Stein]

Most photographers understand the science principle of different color filters. The challenge perhaps is the balanced artistic appearance. When not sure, it is safer to avoid overdo. 

[jaapv]

7 hours ago, pippy said:

As has been said there is more to consider than the sky when using colour contrast filters and the only way to understand what they do is to use them with a view to finding out exactly what each colour will do.

The following pics weren't taken to illustrate this point but they might shed some light on the matter. Snaps were taken on different bodies with different lenses and originally one contained much more subject-matter but has been cropped to approximate the same F-o-View as the other.

First was shot on an M-D Typ-262. 28mm Elmarit asph and Circular Polarizing filter. When used in 'landscape' photography the Pola. is commonly used to darken blue skies in a manner similar to Yellow / Orange / Red filters when shooting in monochrome. Here it helps to give clear separation between the azure sky and the strong yellow of the pylons of the O2 Dome;

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

If this image is converted into monochrome, however, the separation between sky and pylons is noticeably reduced;

 

This next image was shot with an M Monochrom / 35mm Summaron / Leitz Red filter. The Red filter will darken the blue of the sky but will lighten the yellow of the pylons;

 

Hopefully these snaps will go some way to illustrate the importance of knowing whether the scene being photographed is intended to be shown in Colour or Black and White and the choice of which filters will be most suitable in each case.

Philip.

 

 

 

It is so easy to simulate any colour filter in B&W conversion to obtain any contrast range you want. So the problem with the second shot is that it was not properly converted.

[250swb]

3 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

Most photographers understand the science principle of different color filters. The challenge perhaps is the balanced artistic appearance. When not sure, it is safer to avoid overdo. 

When not sure do two versions of the photograph. I carry a filter pouch with a selection of the filters I think I’ll need, make one with no filter or a ‘safe’ filter, make one with something more extreme or experimental if you have a creative idea. Most photographers will have spent time and maybe petrol money to get where they are, so what’s one frame of film in comparison? It’s part of the basic principle to ‘work the subject’, so to carry on until you can’t think of anything else to do, just like a painter changes brush strokes and colours until they work.

[250swb]

6 minutes ago, jaapv said:

It is so easy to simulate any colour filter in B&W conversion to obtain any contrast range you want. So the problem with the second shot is that it was not properly converted.

I thought it was an example and not a problem. 

[jaapv]

Whatever - an example with a contrast complaint. 

[LeicaIIIfContaxIIa]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb Einst_Stein:

What do you think?

I use to use an orange filter as a kind of standard filter (especially for architecture) as soon as the colour green does not play a role in the picture.

If there are any important green parts, yellow-green is my standard filter because orange tends to let green colours become too dark. So on landscapes I use orange only if the sky is more important than green leaves, trees etc.

[Einst_Stein]

2 hours ago, 250swb said:

When not sure do two versions of the photograph. I carry a filter pouch with a selection of the filters I think I’ll need, make one with no filter or a ‘safe’ filter, make one with something more extreme or experimental if you have a creative idea. Most photographers will have spent time and maybe petrol money to get where they are, so what’s one frame of film in comparison? It’s part of the basic principle to ‘work the subject’, so to carry on until you can’t think of anything else to do, just like a painter changes brush strokes and colours until they work.

You have beautiful Flickr albums. what aperture did you use in those forest photos? any or what contrast filter?

[250swb]

7 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said:

You have beautiful Flickr albums. what aperture did you use in those forest photos? any or what contrast filter?

Usually f/11, and usually a yellow filter. But it depends on the film as well as the effect you want to represent for the scene. To my eye the starkness of winter suits a contrasty approach, and if there is any green around like moss on the trees a yellow or orange can add the contrast needed to stop the grey overcast weather dominating with mid-tones. But different films need different approaches. At the moment I'm mostly using Adox HR-50 in 35mm which is a very fine grain copy film, although it responds well normal developers. And while a yellow filter is ok it is also a semi-infrared film so a strong red filter gets dramatic if you have dramatic light, and a proper IR filter gives pretty much a full IR effect, but in winter the IR is always subdued anyway so never overdone. So it's important to have a go and see what your chosen film does with different filters, it doesn't need to be a full on experiment, just get a gut feel. But it's all interrelated with developing the film as well, so it's like being a juggler in your own circus. One step at a time.

[Einst_Stein]

21 minutes ago, 250swb said:

Usually f/11, and usually a yellow filter. But it depends on the film as well as the effect you want to represent for the scene. To my eye the starkness of winter suits a contrasty approach, and if there is any green around like moss on the trees a yellow or orange can add the contrast needed to stop the grey overcast weather dominating with mid-tones. But different films need different approaches. At the moment I'm mostly using Adox HR-50 in 35mm which is a very fine grain copy film, although it responds well normal developers. And while a yellow filter is ok it is also a semi-infrared film so a strong red filter gets dramatic if you have dramatic light, and a proper IR filter gives pretty much a full IR effect, but in winter the IR is always subdued anyway so never overdone. So it's important to have a go and see what your chosen film does with different filters, it doesn't need to be a full on experiment, just get a gut feel. But it's all interrelated with developing the film as well, so it's like being a juggler in your own circus. One step at a time.

You are far more advanced than my current stand.  I am in the stage to handle the most used film, most used developer and most used filter. I am setting up a goal to get the feeling I get from your albums. 

Edited February 12 by Einst_Stein

[pippy]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

It is so easy to simulate any colour filter in B&W conversion to obtain any contrast range you want.,,

We disagree on this matter.

I can live with that.

P.

[erl]

Part o the purity of photography, at least for film photography, is the skill and fun involved in selecting a given filter and applying it. There is always the anticipation of waiting to see the degree to which your calculation has been successful. The move to digital photography, with its greater inherent certainty, allows for more precise control, but tends away from the human element of involvement. ie. Digital allows for more technological control. Each way has their benefits. To generalize in todays environment, it could said digital serves 'work' better, whereas film serves 'recreation' better. A sweeping generalization, I know.

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Hallo,

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[jaapv]

42 minutes ago, pippy said:

We disagree on this matter.

I can live with that.

P.

What is there to disagree about? . Three colour channels, three filter colours of variable intensity. . 

[Einst_Stein]

10 minutes ago, erl said:

Part o the purity of photography, at least for film photography, is the skill and fun involved in selecting a given filter and applying it. There is always the anticipation of waiting to see the degree to which your calculation has been successful. The move to digital photography, with its greater inherent certainty, allows for more precise control, but tends away from the human element of involvement. ie. Digital allows for more technological control. Each way has their benefits. To generalize in today’s environment, it could said digital serves 'work' better, whereas film serves 'recreation' better. A sweeping generalization, I know.

I derive from your point, a camera without viewfinder is more creative than with? Since it does not feedback immediately what you get?