Absolutely furious. Been sent a MOOLY (a) whereas item I bought claimed to be a MOOLY-C

[wlaidlaw]

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From a German seller, I bought what purported to be a MOOLY-C to use on my 1941 Red Blinds "Stepper" IIIc. A couple of days ago, I paid the tax and duty on the import and the package arrived this morning. Immediately on opening, the first thing I unpacked was an external shutter actuation arm, which puzzled me. The MOOLY-C uses an internal small hook on the top of the motor body to catch on a lever on the underside of the IIIc body to release the shutter rather than an external arm. Pulling on this small lever on a IIIc releases the shutter. I then measured the length of the purported MOOLY-C and found it only measured 133.64mm, whereas to fit on a IIIc body, it needs to be 136mm long. Therefore it is completely impossible for this motor to have been fitted on a IIIc and tested, as the seller claims. The length of the sent motor is exactly the same as the MOOLY 2 speed I have already got and is sitting on my IIIa. He claims it was a mistake by an employee but I am very suspicious, given that the testing on the IIIc body is a patent lie and wholly impossible. He has offered a refund but yet again I am out of pocket on the tax and VAT, which I know from bitter experience, is irrecoverable. Before I agreed to buy this item, I explained my past very unfortunate history of twice trying to buy a MOOLY-C, both of which were faulty and that I was out of pocket to the tune of hundreds of pounds in irrecoverable VAT import duties. I therefore wanted to be 100% sure it was the correct item, so that I would only buy it, if it had been tested on a IIIc with film and shown to be fully operational, which the seller claimed it had been.

I don't think I am being unreasonable in expecting the seller to refund my tax and return postage, as well as the purchase price, as a "fine" for lying about the testing and being incompetent. Do folks agree? I am feeling very deflated over this event and angry. I am ready to give up on finding a working chrome MOOLY-C. 

Wilson

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[LocalHero1953]

Not unreasonable at all, given what you were told.

[wlaidlaw]

The seller has agreed to refund purchase price duty and postage, which makes me somewhat happier. 

Wilson

[pgk]

I see an awful lot of misidentified camera gear for sale. Oddly enough most purports to be a more expensive model that it is in reality. You are very reasonable given that you queried it before buying. All that said there is the question of duty which should be refundable and by making it difficult/impossible to refund duty in such cases, the government is being complicit in behaving as badly as the seller. There needs to be a viable solution sorted.

[Deeetona]

Hooly mooly!

[wlaidlaw]

In theory the duty is refundable. For the two previous MOOLY-C purchases, one from Germany and one from Austria, I filled out huge HMRC forms (6 pages each) and supplied reams of paperwork tracking the entire transactions and correspondence with the seller, UPS and HMRC plus personal data (Grandmother's shoe size etc). After a year HMRC decided they needed more paperwork and I had to go and get affidavits from UPS in Newhaven stating that the items had been returned and that they had checked the contents matched the items on which import taxes had been levied before the packages were sealed, even though I had supplied copies of signed transit dockets from UPS, stating that this was the case for each return. Three years later and I am still awaiting refunds. HMRC incompetence or deliberate policy - probably both. 

Wilson

[pgk]

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26 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

Three years later and I am still awaiting refunds. HMRC incompetence or deliberate policy - probably both. 

It might be worth pointing out that interest will be payable on an overdue tax refund.

[Deeetona]

HOW MUCH are these???

[andybarton]

50 minutes ago, pgk said:

It might be worth pointing out that interest will be payable on an overdue tax refund.

Good luck with that...

[pgk]

5 minutes ago, andybarton said:

Good luck with that...

This is actually a legal requirement on late repaid tax although I can't remember the precise details.

[andybarton]

They didn’t pay me interest when they paid my income tax rebate this week. 

[earleygallery]

Another option could be to list it for sale on eBay or similar depending if you could cover your costs and maybe some profit? 

[wlaidlaw]

6 hours ago, Deeetona said:

HOW MUCH are these???

They vary from around €2000+ for a chrome MOOLY-C to upwards of €4000 for a very good condition black MOOLY-C. The regular MOOLY a) for a Model 3(F), IIIa and IIIb fetch around €1,000, with the early two speed versions with both speeds working, a bit more. They were made in quite small numbers in the late 1930s and early 1940s, so not a lot of them around now. Many have broken or weak drive springs (a pair of concentric clock type springs). I have severe arthritis in my hands and really need motor drives/winders on all my user cameras. I really wanted to use my lovely and rebuilt, red blinds IIIc, with a MOOLY-C, as it has a slightly better rangefinder and viewfinder than my IIIa. With a minor modification to the camera body, the MOOLY-C can also be used on my IIIg, where the viewfinder is much better. 

Wilson

[pippy]

1 hour ago, wlaidlaw said:

They vary from around €2000+ for a chrome MOOLY-C to upwards of €4000 for a very good condition black MOOLY-C...

I honestly don't want to derail your thread, Wilson, but if you don't mind - my not knowing much at all about the MOOLY drives other than from what little I've picked-up through reading Rogliatti (et-al) - your post brings up a question.

If the MOOLY-C was introduced to be used on the longer bodied IIIc cameras why were some of these drives made in Black Paint finish? To be used with some of the Grey painted (etc.) special order cameras of the period?

Philip.

[wlaidlaw]

20 minutes ago, pippy said:

I honestly don't want to derail your thread, Wilson, but if you don't mind - my not knowing much at all about the MOOLY drives other than from what little I've picked-up through reading Rogliatti (et-al) - your post brings up a question.

If the MOOLY-C was introduced to be used on the longer bodied IIIc cameras why were some of these drives made in Black Paint finish? To be used with some of the Grey painted (etc.) special order cameras of the period?

Philip.

Philip, 

I believe there were a few (very few) military black painted IIIc cameras. I don't have my Paul Van Hasebroeck book with me in the UK, so I cannot check. The black MOOLY-C motors seem considerably more common than the chrome ones but actually fetch considerably more. As you say a bit of a puzzle. I could understand black MOOLY(a) motors as these will fit on black finish Model III smaller body cameras like my great uncle's, now in my collection but the MOOLY(a) motors only come in chrome. All the grey IIIc cameras were I think a Swedish military order and as far as I can tell, were not sold with MOOLY-C motors. Maybe it was felt that a black motor, as it was continuous with the black Vulkanit was less of an obvious big lump on the bottom of the camera. See photo below of a chrome IIIc with a black MOOLY-C.

Wilson

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[pippy]

3 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

...Maybe it was felt that a black motor, as it was continuous with the black Vulkanit was less of an obvious big lump on the bottom of the camera. See photo below of a chrome IIIc with a black MOOLY-C...

Thank you for your answer, Wilson, which I found to be very interesting.

Yes; I can see how a Black MOOLY would be a more subtle 'blend' with a camera than would a silver-chrome - as you put it - 'big lump'!

Thanks again!

Philip.

[alan mcfall]

What was the 4 digit serial number on the mooly you received?  The short base motor used serials from 100 to about 3500. Only a very few long based motors were then made from approximatesly 3498 to 3526 ( the highest I have seen).  Possibly these were pre-production for the IIIc, and in chrome.  I have 3521 and it fits the IIIc.

Almost all long based IIIc motors started with serials at 5000.  From 5000 to about 5217 were in chrome, from 5218 to about 5300 were in grey, and from about 5300 to about 5682 (highest I have recorded) were black.   I have recorded 150 long based motors, there is no gaurentee that production was continuous from 5000 to 5700 but there are no  large gaps in the data, so it is likely.  So, for the long based, approximately 230 in chrome, arround 100 in grey, and the most common are the black with maybe 400 or so.  I believe the grey are the most rare followed by the chrome the then black with nearly double the chrom. I have a  few of the black.

Perhaps someone has more detailed records, such as Lars N.

[alan mcfall]

My chrome 3c Mooly 3521 was shipped  May, 29, 1941 to Munich, on order #25460.   3525 was also shipped to Italy the same date.  If shipping dates and order numbers exist, one would think there would be factory records that would help our understanding. Photos have been shown of how the short based housing was cut and lengthened to make the longer IIIc shell. The braze line is sometimes still visable.

Most grey moolys for IIIc were "K" stamped, not all, about 75% of those I have seen. Perhaps a few non "K" grey Moolys for civilian grey IIIc's.  The chrome "K" stamped IIIc mooly is evidently rare, I have only recorded six.  They would be for the chrome IIIc K's.

One referrence, which I did not record, is that the chrome IIIc moolys with 3xxx serials were in a batch from, 3495-3546, a lot of 50. I have recorded 8.

There were chrome IIIc moolys in the 5xxx batch that were shipped before the  3xxx ones. So, perhaps these 50 were not preproduction, but rather just a continuation using the serials from the short based moolys.  e.g.  5003 (chrome IIIc) delivered on Dec, 12, 1940 to Berlin.

How many black IIIc moolys were made before the end of the war and after the war is not clear, maybe all  of them were after.  5481 was delivered  May 1948 and 5641  April 1949.  Why black was used after the war when chrome was available is a question.  I don't think these possible 400 black motors were all intended for the black IIIc's for Sweden or otherwise as very few black IIIc cameras were made. Many catalogs and photos show the black IIIc mooly available for routine purchase.

As often reported, there were some issues with the early two speed short based moolys. As a tempory solution, a small brass block was placed under the speed button to prohibit the second speed. Early single speed short based moolys can be easily returned to 2 speed operation by removing this block. shortly thereafter the internals were fixed at a single speed.

Any grey or "K" mooly is extremely rare.

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[wlaidlaw]

Alan, 

Many thanks for your detailed information, which very helpful. My own 2 speed MOOLY, sitting on my IIIa, which after a CLA by Malcolm Taylor, using modern high lubricity greases, does unusually now work on both speeds, is serial No. 439. It has obviously had a quite hard life, with noticeable wear in the chrome. I bought it from Spain about 8 years ago and it would not surprise me if it was actually the one stolen with my father's IIIa in Madrid in 1967. It looks very like what I recall his one looking like. I am trying to create a perfect replica of my father's favourite Leica but sadly stolen, a IIIa, with a MOOLY 2 speed (well used) and a coated Summar. I seem to be having as much luck finding a coated Summar as I am at finding a MOOLY-C, in that I have been sent two of them purporting to be coated and returned two of them, as they did not prove to be coated on arrival. Luckily  both were from UK sellers, so no customs tax issue on returning. I already have three uncoated Summar 50s and I just don't need any more. I therefore at present have a coated 35/2.8 Summaron sitting on my IIIa. 

The MOOLY I was just sent, wrongly purporting to be a -C, is a later single speed model serial number 2610. It is in lovely condition, far better than mine, but I just don't need it.

Wilson

[willeica]

15 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

Philip, 

I believe there were a few (very few) military black painted IIIc cameras. I don't have my Paul Van Hasebroeck book with me in the UK, so I cannot check. The black MOOLY-C motors seem considerably more common than the chrome ones but actually fetch considerably more. As you say a bit of a puzzle. I could understand black MOOLY(a) motors as these will fit on black finish Model III smaller body cameras like my great uncle's, now in my collection but the MOOLY(a) motors only come in chrome. All the grey IIIc cameras were I think a Swedish military order and as far as I can tell, were not sold with MOOLY-C motors. Maybe it was felt that a black motor, as it was continuous with the black Vulkanit was less of an obvious big lump on the bottom of the camera. See photo below of a chrome IIIc with a black MOOLY-C.

Wilson

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Wilson, my one and only MOOLY ( No 726 with 2 speeds if you slide the button) is mounted on a late black paint III with chrome furniture, where it matches very well, I think.

6 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

I already have three uncoated Summar 50s and I just don't need any more. I therefore at present have a coated 35/2.8 Summaron sitting on my IIIa. 

I have 3 coated Summars, including this one which has an unusual red dot on the front rim.

This one has blue coating. My other two 5cm Summars, with coating, have pink and yellow coating respectively. As the lens predates coating by Leitz it is highly likely that the coatings were done outside the factory. My remaining 9 or 10 5cm Summars are all uncoated and I really like the look they give.

William