R8 Frame Counter Not Working

[Loplop]

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Hello!  I am a longtime Leica LTM/M shooter but *very* new to the R system, having picked up a really nice physical condition R8 last week on a whim.  The camera appears to operate fine—I ran a roll of film through, the negatives are a bit thick but I am learning the idiosyncrasies of the meter, all shutter speeds seem fine.  The camera generally operated flawlessly and was a real joy to shoot, however with one annoying issue—the frame counter never changes from 00.  This is both on the back LCD as well as in the viewfinder.

I obviously didn’t realize this before I loaded the film, so I just wound pretty gingerly once I got near the end of the roll, and everything worked out fine.  After rewinding the film, I tried various things: cleaning the contacts on the body/door, popping the rewind knob down and up with the multiple exposure lever, opening/closing the back (which seems to do so mechanically just fine, and I had no problems with the LCD not showing when I wanted to see/change ISO).  

Any ideas for something I could try, or is it just an electronic gubbin that’s dead and I’m out of luck?

[masjah]

Might just be worth checking that the double exposure switch is in the fully off position, or even actuating it on and off a few times to see if it has been sticking a bit.  The thought crossed my mind that, if in a halfway-house state, it might be disabling the rewind indication but still permitting the film advance. (It's the only easy thing I can think of, and it's some time since I last ran a film through my R8 or R9.)

 

[Loplop]

4 minutes ago, masjah said:

Might just be worth checking that the double exposure switch is in the fully off position, or even actuating it on and off a few times to see if it has been sticking a bit.  The thought crossed my mind that, if in a halfway-house state, it might be disabling the rewind indication but still permitting the film advance. (It's the only easy thing I can think of, and it's some time since I last ran a film through my R8 or R9.)

 

Thank you for the idea!  That was one of the first avenues I explored; I have actuated it multiple times with no apparent change to the film counter operation. The multiple exposure switch seems to be working correctly, though, I made a few multiple exposure shots on my test roll and they turned out as expected, and it correctly went back to normal advance for the rest of the roll. 
 

🤷‍♂️ 

 

I appreciate the thoughts!

[jrh68uk]

A few years ago I took the back of my (first) R8 to pieces, to see how easy/hard it would be to clean out or change the LCD. A previous owner had dropped the camera and (apart from some impact marks on the top) this had slightly damaged the display. It was still working but I was curious to see if I could improve things at all. Anyway, display aside (still fine, I can’t improve it but I could easily replace it if I ever find one, so it would look a bit nicer) I discovered how the frame counter worked. It’s fairly simple in that a roller rotates with the film moving past and this is connected to a counter mechanism, which will cause the count of one frame for a certain length of film movement to roller rotation. The counter movement is ultimately conveyed to the camera through the electrical contact points.

Two things come to mind: the roller-counter is not working properly, or the data are not being conveyed electrically. For the second possibility I’d also expect other things, such as ISO, to be improperly conveyed; you have said that yours is OK in this respect and you’ve cleaned the contacts. The first option might be slightly more tricky to investigate. The roller could be stuck or slipping. The connection from roller to counter mechanism could be compromised. The counter mechanism may be malfunctioning. 

Of course, with access to a second body, you could rule things out by swapping backs. If this is not possible, see if you can freely rotate the counter roller and see if there’s something that may cause it to slip. If you’re feeling a bit brave, take it apart and have a poke around. It may be that the back is fine and the problem is with the receiving electronics, but my feeling is that this would be less likely. When I took my back apart, I was quite surprised at how simple it was and how easy it could be for the counter to become erratic. The reliance is on the film to rubber bits of roller pressure/connection and exact rotations being converted into frame numbers. Check the springiness of the roller - is there enough pressure on the film? Are the contact areas of the roller clean?

[Loplop]

@jrh68uk that is FANTASTIC information, thank you!  I figured the film counter mechanism would be in the body, not the back.  That’s a very interesting design choice.  And while odd, it actually makes me feel a lot better—likely scenario, I just live with no film counter; less likely scenario it’s terminal for the camera.

I believe the roller mechanism you refer to is the same mechanism responsible for the “spinning barber pole” at the right hand side of the back when winding film, correct?  If so, I can definitely see that spinning barber pole rotating when the film is advancing, so the film-to-roller contact seems fine. 

You are correct in that I have zero problems with the back LCD not displaying, or using the self-timer, so I don’t think it’s related to electrical contact.  

The issue then seems likely to be with the mechanism that picks up the roller’s rotations. Do you recall what that mechanism is?  Any tips for disassembling the back? 

 

[jrh68uk]

It’s been a few years since I did this, so I’ll need to go back to it and remind myself. Preferably without taking it completely apart again  I don’t want to rely purely on memory so let me have a look and I’ll get back to you. I do remember it wasn’t difficult to get to it; taking their entire display out was harder (actually it was putting that back as there are pressure springs there that had to be carefully placed, but that’s more than I think you need to know). 

[Loplop]

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8 minutes ago, jrh68uk said:

It’s been a few years since I did this, so I’ll need to go back to it and remind myself. Preferably without taking it completely apart again  I don’t want to rely purely on memory so let me have a look and I’ll get back to you. I do remember it wasn’t difficult to get to it; taking their entire display out was harder (actually it was putting that back as there are pressure springs there that had to be carefully placed, but that’s more than I think you need to know). 

Thanks!  I have some film in there right now, I would have already done a mid-roll rewind as I’m deadly curious.  But I realized won’t know what frame to go back to!  Ha.

I’ll probably shoot through the roll in the next few days.

[jrh68uk]

OK, here you go. Remove the 2 screws that hold the roller and the two that hold the cover, shown in the picture.

You can see this mechanism is quite simple; for each single rotation of the roller, the offset piece in the middle will press the top contact, which will make contact with the lower one. That's one frame advanced. Note: a newly loaded film will not advance to 1 until after a couple of shots have been fired - obvious but just in case.

The foremost reliances here are:

• The roller makes proper contact with the film and rotates at the expected rate (yours should be OK if you see the little barber pole thingy moving consistently).
• The centre piece of the roller has the offset bit intact.
• The two contacts are correctly positioned and clean.
• The plastic cover and roller frame supply the correct amount of pressure to hold the roller in place so that it will push the top contact downwards sufficiently.
• The contacts' connectivity to the back's pins is intact.
• The connectivity from back to camera is good.
• The camera has the ability to receive and process the signals.

Some of the connectivity testing you could do for the back alone, with a multimeter. 

Take care with those screws. Do not over tighten as they can easily strip the thread in the plastic (one of mine has a bit but it all still works). 

If it all looks good and connectivity seems fine, you could try a tiny amount of bending of the lower contact, upwards towards the top (but not too much). This might fix a case where the roller is not pressing the top connector downwards quite enough.

 

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Edited January 23 by jrh68uk

[Loplop]

Superb, I really appreciate the time and attention you put into that write up. As you stated, it’s quite simple what it is doing when you see it.

 I’ll get this roll finished and get it opened up!  Will report back with findings.

[jrh68uk]

Please do. I hope it's a simple thing with the back and not something else.

[David N. VanMeter]

I read somewhere that R8s in a specific SN range are prone to electrical problems. I regret I don’t have specifics on this but wondering if this problem may be symptomatic of that electrical degradation? But great info from jrh68uk.

[Loplop]

I pulled off the back, disassembled per the above, and verified with a multimeter that the barber pole was correctly pushing down the top contact.  I tweaked the metal leaves a bit to enhance reliability of the contact, as well as lightly buffed their surfaces and added some deoxit.  It did work more reliably after that, although honestly my multimeter probes are fairly large and perhaps weren’t making reliable contact the first time around.

Unfortunately, though, no change in behavior.  I loaded up a test roll, fired and advanced at least 10 frames, and the counter never leaves zero   I repeated this 3 times to the same result.  Since I’ve cleaned the contacts 2x, and have no problems with ISO and self-timer, I suspect those are OK.  I guess I’m SOL here as the problem appears deeper.

2475934 is the serial number. I’ve run 4 rolls through this week, and it’s worked beautifully. Exposures are good. I could return it to the shop I purchased it at, although I’m inclined to just live with the lack of frame knowledge and keep my eye out for another really nice R8.  I like the camera and would like to keep shooting the R glass I just purchased

[TomB_tx]

I agree - just use and enjoy it. I do the same with my cameras that have manual reset counters as I usually forget to zero them. 

[Loplop]

33 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

I agree - just use and enjoy it. I do the same with my cameras that have manual reset counters as I usually forget to zero them. 

That’s the plan. I’d say with 4 good rolls through and perfect otherwise the odds are it will keep working for awhile (knock on Wetzlar wood??)

I’m just going to enjoy it.  

Now I need to learn the R lineup of glass, as compared to the M’s, which I know so well. I started with what was available and reasonably priced locally— a very late copy of the 50 Summicron, and a very early (although 3-cam modified) 21 SA. Based upon the scans, the 50 Cron is similar to a M Cron, although I believe it is a different optical formula. The 21 SA doesn’t look like an M-mount SA at all to me—much less vignetting, much more distortion. I suppose it’s further afield from the famous and very characterful M design. My copy is extremely sharp for a wide angle, though, I’m going to enjoy it although I’ll stay away from architecture 😂 and I’ll probably search for a very characterful WA. 

The R8 is a brilliant camera in use.  I really like it. 

[TomB_tx]

1 hour ago, Loplop said:

Now I need to learn the R lineup of glass, as compared to the M’s, which I know so well.

I'd also suggest the 60 2.8 Macro Elmar R, which I use a lot on my R8 - often just as a "normal" carry around lens. The 35 & 90 R Summicrons are also nice. I've had the 135 f2.8 since 1969, and also have the 250 f4 which has been great for wildlife. I still have a 400 f6.8 Telyt (with shoulder brace) like David Douglas Duncan made famous at the 1968 Democratic Presidential convention. but I find that best adapted to a Sony A7III for its speed and stabilization. All of these were bargains in 3-cam versions. While the R8 can use the ROM lenses, but I see no need for them.

[jrh68uk]

It's a real shame that didn't work. I guess something must be going awry with the electronic counter in the camera, but the only practical way to be sure is to try your back on another body. Or your body with another back. I'm lucky to have two fully functional R8s and the reason I have two is that I want some redundancy in case anything ever goes wrong. OK, also one is chrome and one is black  

The thing I'm most worried about with these is the reported issue of the spot meter failing. This might not sound like a major issue except that the spot module is used for the other metering modes, so if the module stops responding, all readings are off regardless. I don't honestly know how common this is but even time I check my spot meters I'm always relieved to see them responding normally.

I'm not sure where you're located but if you have any opportunity to try out another back/body then try to do that, so you can be sure. In the meantime, as others and you have said, enjoy using it and keep a mental note of frame number (or maybe get one of those clicker-counter things or something). I actually prefer slightly the R8 to the R9 (yeah, two of those as well) but they are all so lovely to use. The 50 'cron is superb and if you like the 35mm f.o.v. you might be lucky and find a 35 'cron at a reasonable-ish price. It's a very characterful lens. Also maybe look out for a 28 f/2.8 - earlier version is less expensive and apparently very good but the optical formula was changed and CRC added to the last one with the built-in hood, and it's just superb. 

[Loplop]

Thanks for the suggestions, all!  I just learned that David (on this very thread) is local to me, so perhaps if he and I have empty R8s at a similar time, we can swap backs and see what happens.  In the meantime, I’m going to enjoy it and wait for some more really nice R lenses to cross my path!

[Loplop]

Quick update here: David and I swapped backs from his working R8 to mine, and the result was no change. My R8 still will not count frames. I guess it’s something in the body, after all. 

I’m just going to shoot and enjoy it, and keep an eye out for a nice 2nd body to show up locally to get as a backup. 

I’m also keeping my eye out for nice lenses. I found a really nice 60 Macro-Elmarit, I’m shooting it now for the first time!  I’ve been using a close up filter a fair amount on my 50 Cron (honestly works VERY well), but this will be a lot more convenient. I also really like 58’s for portraiture and candids, so I’ll probably try it in that role, as well.

Thanks again, all, for the suggestions. Fingers crossed my body stays otherwise healthy for a good long while

[jrh68uk]

Ah that's a shame, but good that you were able to do a back swap. I suppose all the intelligence of frame counting will be in the body; the back just sends the signal as the film rolls the roller, to the body and the body sends the frame count back in to the display in the back (and also in the viewfinder). I wonder if there's some tie-in with the wind-on mechanism, too, in which case there would be another micro switch which may possibly not be triggering. Anyway, ss you say, you can still enjoy using it.

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[Loplop]

I was suspicious I had an easy fix after I validated with the multimeter that the roller mechanism was operational. Ah, well. 

Still a great camera!  I really like the F mode. Why don’t all cameras have that??