Leica 111c property of SS Kriegsbericther

[KPH]

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No connection with company or sale. Have purchased previously from auction house. Pretty rare me thinks.

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[LeicaIIIfContaxIIa]

I tend to think that many offers of this kind today are fakes. There are too many people who believe they can get money in this dubious way.

You can see how the offices of the National Socialist Reich labelled their cameras in Hans-Jürgen Kuc's book Auf den Spuren der Contax I, pp. 156 and 158 - it must have been similar in principle with Leicas: The cameras bear engraved markings (but no swastikas), these engravings are small and unspectacular. I find the adhesive strip shown here in the pictures a little strange.

Unfortunately, I cannot verify the reference to ‘Lager Vol. I, p. 89’. This could possibly prove its authenticity.

Edited January 17 by LeicaIIIfContaxIIa

[KPH]

Interesting I have a copy of the contax book .will take a look.  I think it's Genuine. But not particularly interesting. As an auction I guess it will find it's true value Don't think it's an adhesive strip. But removal of paint to brass . Why ?

Edited January 17 by KPH
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[zeitz]

1 hour ago, LeicaIIIfContaxIIa said:

I cannot verify the reference to ‘Lager Vol. I, p. 89’. This could possibly prove its authenticity.

If the camera is fake, Lager Vol. I, p. 89 would give the forger the information to make a convincing fake.  The Lager reference unfortunately does not help with authenticity.  Information from the Leica archives would help.

[willeica]

6 hours ago, zeitz said:

If the camera is fake, Lager Vol. I, p. 89 would give the forger the information to make a convincing fake.  The Lager reference unfortunately does not help with authenticity.  Information from the Leica archives would help.

I've asked them. The camera is not on Dr Luigi Cane's military list, but it may have gone to a Ministry rather than to the German Military.

 

William 

[zeitz]

31 minutes ago, willeica said:

The camera is not on Dr Luigi Cane's military list

My 1943 Grey IIIc K from Mint & Rare is not on Cane's list either.  Jo Geier stands by his determination that it is military.  I have not checked with Leica Archives.

[zeitz]

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7 hours ago, zeitz said:

The Lager reference unfortunately does not help with authenticity

The Lager books are so detailed that they can help make a fake.  The attached photo shows a fake Leica "Gewehr".  The special finder is from the Tamarkin Auction in 2021.  The finder was mounted to an ordinary PLOOT reflex housing by SK Grimes using the photos from Lager exclusively.  Volume III, pages 111 and 112.  I would never pass it off as being from the period, but who knows what someone will do after me?

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[KPH]

9 hours ago, LeicaIIIfContaxIIa said:

I tend to think that many offers of this kind today are fakes. There are too many people who believe they can get money in this dubious way.

You can see how the offices of the National Socialist Reich labelled their cameras in Hans-Jürgen Kuc's book Auf den Spuren der Contax I, pp. 156 and 158 - it must have been similar in principle with Leicas: The cameras bear engraved markings (but no swastikas), these engravings are small and unspectacular. I find the adhesive strip shown here in the pictures a little strange.

Unfortunately, I cannot verify the reference to ‘Lager Vol. I, p. 89’. This could possibly prove its authenticity.

I have the English language edition and can find no references.  Confirm please volum 1

[willeica]

5 hours ago, zeitz said:

  I have not checked with Leica Archives.

I have checked in respect of this camera, but no response has been received yet. Lars told me years ago that if something is in Cane, it is military, but, if it is not, it might still be, but definite proof would also be needed. This camera might have gone to an outfit like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reich_Ministry_of_Public_Enlightenment_and_Propaganda . Let us see what the Archive says, but it might just be marked 'Bln' = Berlin, as have a lot of other cameras, which I have checked.

William 

[jc_braconi]

I have not red all the post, but a German camera from WW II with an Elmar in feet is someting at least suspect

[KPH]

17 minutes ago, jc_braconi said:

I have not red all the post, but a German camera from WW II with an Elmar in feet is someting at least suspect

Don't forget the camera is now in the UK. Highly likely the original lens was changed.

[arno_nyhm]

The Nazis killed millions of civilians of their own nation just for being jews. they got them together like animals in cargo trains, separated those who could work and killed the others. victims were informex by letters, when and where they would have to appear for their deportation. in the early years, there were few people realizing (at least everybody stated this post war) that this "invitation" was a ticket to hell. Thousands of jews followed their invitation.

it is quite posibble, that some of the jews thought of this trip as the adventure of their life and brought a camera along.

of course, when arriving at the concentrationcamp everybody had to undress and leave their belongings behind. this would have been the moment, when a civilian leica would have moved into possession of the nazis. the germans of that time were possessed of writing down, numbering and markimg everythimg. concentationcamps were driven by the SS.

Therefore a Leica with SS-engaving is rather likely to be civilian-bought and then stolen by the nazis.

by the way: those SS-men who couldnt stand the killing of civilians anymore were free to leave their jobs in the camps and opt for fighting at the frontline. if one of them had stolen a leica from a jew an would have been sent to the front afterwards, his leica might have gotten markings of the SS and then been used for warpurposes.

As a human being, i cannot understand, why someone would even want to hold or not to speak of even own a camera with a history of that horror.

[KPH]

13 minutes ago, arno_nyhm said:

The Nazis killed millions of civilians of their own nation just for being jews. they got them together like animals in cargo trains, separated those who could work and killed the others. victims were informex by letters, when and where they would have to appear for their deportation. in the early years, there were few people realizing (at least everybody stated this post war) that this "invitation" was a ticket to hell. Thousands of jews followed their invitation.

it is quite posibble, that some of the jews thought of this trip as the adventure of their life and brought a camera along.

of course, when arriving at the concentrationcamp everybody had to undress and leave their belongings behind. this would have been the moment, when a civilian leica would have moved into possession of the nazis. the germans of that time were possessed of writing down, numbering and markimg everythimg. concentationcamps were driven by the SS.

Therefore a Leica with SS-engaving is rather likely to be civilian-bought and then stolen by the nazis.

by the way: those SS-men who couldnt stand the killing of civilians anymore were free to leave their jobs in the camps and opt for fighting at the frontline. if one of them had stolen a leica from a jew an would have been sent to the front afterwards, his leica might have gotten markings of the SS and then been used for warpurposes.

As a human being, i cannot understand, why someone would even want to hold or not to speak of even own a camera with a history of that horror.

With respect I don't disagree with your points.

But the camera was sent to Berlin for Distribution. Verification by Leitz. The camera then went to war Journalist and that's what the markings relate to.  Maybe it captured the bombing of Dresden by the allies where the death toll was horrendous amongst civilians.  Many not even German.  Your making a lot of wild assumptions about the use of the camera and how it was acquired. The history of the extermination of those is well documented and I don't disagree.  My wife distant relatives arrived in the UK after fleeing persecution in Europe. Yes they were Jews  we think from Eastern Europe 

[arno_nyhm]

sorry, if i did not make that clear: i was not referring to any specific camera. i was referring to a greater amount of cameras and their potential story and to the fact that i would never want to own a camera with a story like that.

 

Edited March 10 by arno_nyhm

[TomB_tx]

History can not be changed, and ignoring it invites repeating past mistakes. Some relics of history, such as a wartime camera, can serve to remind us of the evil that mankind was (and is) capable of doing. It should not be forgotten.

[pedaes]

Someone obviously thought it genuine as they paid £3780 for it.

[qqphot]

On 3/10/2025 at 5:04 AM, TomB_tx said:

History can not be changed, and ignoring it invites repeating past mistakes. Some relics of history, such as a wartime camera, can serve to remind us of the evil that mankind was (and is) capable of doing. It should not be forgotten.

They can, but I can't help but find it in relateively poor taste when collectors (not referring to anyone here) focus especially on cameras based on their connection to that regime.