Leica Lens template proposal

[LocalHero1953]

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4 hours ago, hansvons said:

Photography is storytelling.

This......

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[3D-Kraft.com]

  

vor einer Stunde schrieb Al Brown:

A very good reason for that - because on Sony etc. the test is not representative of lens' capabilities but merely academic for the minor group you are reffering to

I guess, you are incredibly wrong if you look at the body sales figures of Sony compared to those of Leica. Almost any Sony A7 / A1 / A9 user that I know of (and also the APS-C crowd) acquired over the years also some M-mount lenses which also can be verified when looking at their forums. But yes, from a red-dot-bubble that still may look like a minority...

vor einer Stunde schrieb Al Brown:

We also have to key in the adapter factor (even those without lenses like AF Techarts mess with flange shim distance at infinity).

Good hint, but for the "AF Techart" (LM-EA9 for Sony) you are wrong. It covers some extra movement-range on both ends, but of course, you have to set the manual lens to infinity.

Edited January 5 by 3D-Kraft.com

[pgk]

1 hour ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Almost any Sony A7 / A1 / A9 user that I know of (and also the APS-C crowd) acquired over the years also some M-mount lenses .....

Not my experience. I use Sony bodies for all sorts of lenses, some very old (~1860s), some not. Using non-native lenses requires a step change in operation, slowing down and doing so means that the operation is lacking many of the refinements associated with native lenses. Sony bodies are useful for many other solutions but, speaking as someone who owns both Leica and Sony lenses, I have to say that whilst I do very occasionally use M lenses on Sony bodies, it is rare for me to do so. They work much better on M cameras, although longer (~135mm) are easier to focus precisely on Sony bodies (but then that is my least used M lens anyway). Unnlike some I am happy to use wides such as the 21SEM on Sony bodies but they are easier to focus precisely on M so why bother?

[250swb]

14 hours ago, Altair said:

I want to see this happen, and firmly believe that once the ball gets rolling this will be sold enjoyable and the usefulness so clear we won't be able to stop. This effort would be so comprehensive and valuable it will eliminate redundant threads for decades to come, the names associated will go down in Leica history, the general quality of pictures taken by newcomers will be sold much better it will be all but impossible to differentiate a legendary photographer from a first time user.

 

I feel my hand is forced, for the sake of a proof of concept i will start running the test overviews and setup an online template. I need suggestions on two lenses, a widely used lens and a challenge lens.

Last time I heard the wheel needed reinventing they came up with a wheel.

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Al Brown:

The discussion was about putting Leica M lenses on those bodies. Quite niche. Your funny claim that most Sony users buy a M  lens made me giggle.

Looks like you have no insight into forums outside the red-dot-bubble.

It took Sony about 13 months after the appearance of the A7 until the first native wide angle lens (below 35mm) became available. During that time almost any user of the A7 series (the A7R was lightyears ahead of the M240 at that time) gained experience back then with M-mount lenses. Most were frustrated due to the bad performance on the thicker fliter stack but some already understood at that time the advantage of more telecentric designs (like the WATE or the CV Ultron 21/1.8) when used on digital and many continued integrating M-lenses in their portfolio.

Many manual lenses (e.g. from Voigtländer) that followed the years after were available with different mirrorless mounts and even though many of them were available with E-Mount, the users still went for the M-mount due to the ability to use them with autofocus on adapters like the Techart LM-EA9.

You can ignore this and make fun of it, but there are people who do not see Leica as the only option, but rather are interested in the possibilities of integrating a certain character or vintage look with M-mount lenses on more advanced and powerful cameras and with autofocus option.

Edited January 5 by 3D-Kraft.com

[farnz]

... will someone pass the popcorn please?

Pete.

[Altair]

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I am not going to quote any person or single out any unfortunate snide remarks, but will say in general someone is trying to create something that adds value to the community and to newcomers to this specific area of our hobby, if you can't be constructive why detract from those efforts?

I an very appreciative of the helpful and insightful efforts. This will never be of any value if it is not for your excellent contributions here to the concept itself and later on to the content. Thank you

 

[Altair]

Thank you for all the great suggestions and warnings we have so far. I will wait until everyone has contributed before we reach a concensus on the proof of concept initial template.

I will clarify one point so we really don't need to discuss that further, we will do three phases, first phase is Leica Karbe, second is Leica Mandler, third would be third party lenses.

For the first phase 8-12 lenses should be sufficient I think before publication. But for now let's decide on the proof of concept template.

[pgk]

4 hours ago, Altair said:

I will clarify one point so we really don't need to discuss that further, we will do three phases, first phase is Leica Karbe, second is Leica Mandler, third would be third party lenses.

You probably also need to make further 'sub-distinctions'. So Mandler and some third party lenses were limited by glass types available (the 35 Summilux was as good as it could have been for a non-aspheric lens with the existing glass available when it was designed). Mandler tried some aspheric designs but these were ground surfaces and consistency was a problem. Karbe's era is one in which different glass types are used (no lead glass nor radioactive) and in which molded aspheric lenses are now a precision reality. Designs have changed to accept the differing needs of digital sensors as opposed to film. All this will somehow need to be woven in to the story so it is a complicated thing to do even in terms of accessibility to information and layout. I am unsure just how you can deal with subjective data which is to an extent interlinked with design flaws. If you really want to go ahead you will find that it can be a daunting task to correlate data in meaningful ways. I am currently writing up information on a much earlier lens maker and it is very compex even though only crown and flint glass types were available and lenses were hand ground. There is no doubt that the maker in question (Grubb of Dublin) was aware of the use of aspheric surfaces by the 1880s and some information which suggests that they were hand ground and used (and not positive information). 

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Al Brown:

if he says forums show every Sony user has a M lens than that must be 100% true! I work with Sony Imaging Pro Support and they giggled too when I showed them the post. But I am guilty - a Sony Alpha user for a decade (currently 4 bodies) AND a Leica M lens owner, so I better stop.

I am a Sony Pro Support member since beginning (#25), so what now? Of course, they do not care much for non-Sony Equipment, but guess what some Sony dealers recommended "behind closed doors" before native lenses wider than 35mm became available...?

I think neither you nor I can provide evidence for our position, but if you would be as present in Sony user forums, like you are here, you probably would come to a different conclusion. Giggling at another's point of view is not the way to engage in constructive discourse, so let's leave the popcorn in the cupboard and see if there are any more constructive contributions here.

Edited January 6 by 3D-Kraft.com

[pippy]

8 hours ago, Altair said:

...we will do three phases, first phase is Leica Karbe, second is Leica Mandler, third would be third party lenses...

Herr Mandler was responsible for the design of approximately 45 lenses - starting some 30 years after the company's inception - and Herr Karbe has 'only' held the office of Chief Optical Designer since 2002. Will there be a fourth phase for the hundreds of Leica lenses designed by neither of these two gentlemen?

Philip.

Edited January 6 by pippy

[Altair]

Well I recieved the M6 Titan and the Mandler lens. My first and probably last lens from that era

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[Altair]

I only had about 10 minutes to test the Mandler 75 Summilux today but I can share my early thoughts and test pictures (I apologise in advance)

I can see why Peter Karbe reportedly does not like this particular lens. It is nor sharp. Karbe is a perfectionist, his formula seems to strive for sharpness and accuracy while maintaining three dimentionality and a balanced character to a lens out of focus areas. Dr. Mandler seems to be more a romantic rather than a romantic, this lens has pretty extreme character, is soft, and the bokeh has the most painterly sense I have personally experienced. Seriousely out of focus images seem like they are oil paintings.

It is not sharp, and is difficult to focus on the M11 for me, not impossible for a newcomer but not as easy as the 50s or 35s of today. I did not have my visoflex and had to resort to the rangefinder and back screen to test the lens. I am looking forward to the SL3S in January, this should be a fantastic lens to pair with that camera.

[Altair]

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[LocalHero1953]

You might do better to post these in the thread for this particular lens, rather than 'Why I love and hate the Leica M'!😉

[Altair]

Just loaded the M6 with Velvia 50 and have the 35 APO on it. Should be interesting to see what the cimbination of the APOs clarity and the Velvias texture turns out to be like. 

[pgk]

3 hours ago, pippy said:

Will there be a fourth phase for the hundreds of Leica lenses designed by neither of these two gentlemen?

Someone in my year at PCL ended up as head of optical design at Elcan (now retired). I might drop him a line and ask his opinion😆. That said perhaps the credit will go to AI and we won't need 'idols of optics' anymore. And Leica aren't alone in their history of lenses and optical designers: https://imaging.nikon.com/imaging/information/story/ which is well worth wading through if you've ever used Nikon lenses, and quite a nice solution to providing useful and historical information about lenses.

Edited January 6 by pgk

[Altair]

28 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

You might do better to post these in the thread for this particular lens, rather than 'Why I love and hate the Leica M'!😉

These are just test shots to see how my sample turned out and how I did with it on a first try, certainly not worthy or intended for that dedicated post 

 

As selfish as this is, I am using this thread to document my first three months in the world of Leica. So far the journey has been transformative.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Altair]

I am testing this lens as a portrait lens with the Visoflex and also on the Z9 with an adapter. Much better.

For portraiture, truly unique results. No professional photographer would want to use this lens I assume, getting the eyes tack sharp is nearly impossible wide open and even when close, it is a soft lens. That said, for a hobbyist such as myself and my family we love it. My wife likes the flattering effect that she has likened to an iPhone filter, I understand she means the lack of skin detail and creamy skin texture. The glow is also on maximum here.

I apologize as I am not comfortable posting pictures of my family online, if i do some street portraits and the victim allows it will post here. I should mention this is the last German made version, which I was told is the desirable one( have not tested any other )

 

Final conclusion, is it worth the 4k price tag? Difficult to say. For my personal use, I am glad I got it as it represents a departure from all my other glass and the results are both fun and pleasing. For most, I assume and modern alternative such as the 75 APO would be a better option. It really comes down to if you want to diversify or consolidate.

 

I will say, the 75mm is very tempting and agreeable. I am back listing after the Noctilux 75 now.

 

 

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Altair:

I am back listing after the Noctilux 75 now.

😉