Q3 43 in low light - on the edge

[LocalHero1953]

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Posted for info, to show how much one can recover from low light/high ISO images with the Q3 43, and where it begins to fall apart.
All shots taken at ISO 25,000, and edited in Lightroom.

First, straight out of camera. No processing other than straightening and cropping to match the final images as I finished them.

 

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Edited December 8, 2024 by LocalHero1953

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[LocalHero1953]

My intention in processing was to see if I could recover just a little detail in the shadows, rather than just leave them as a large expanse of black.

The same images after adjusting tone by 'Auto', then lifting Exposure and Shadows to show the banding in the shadows. The banding in the shadows is just visible after hitting 'Auto' but I lifted exposure and shadows to show its pattern better. Even in these versions it is not that obvious, but it is clear n the screen.

 

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Edited December 8, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[LocalHero1953]

The final versions after AI Denoise, and more cautious lifting of shadows.

In this first one, more shadow detail is visible in Lightroom, and could probably be printed, than is visible in the forum image.

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Edited December 8, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[PeterHatt]

20 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The final versions after AI Denoise, and more cautious lifting of shadows.

In this first one, more shadow detail is visible in Lightroom, and could probably be printed, than is visible in the forum image.

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If you use a linear profile I have found you definitely get more dynamic range - I will find my original post and link it 

After reading this article by Tony kuper explaining Linear profiles I have downloaded and imported the Q3 43 linear profile into Camera Raw. It seem good ( remember by design it will look  flat at first ) the logic behind using a linear profile to me is convincing, is  anyone else using a linear profile if so any opinions ?
 

   https://tonykuyper.wordpress.com/2021/07/23/the-linear-profile-a-new-beginning-in-light-room-and-camera-raw/
 

 

Edited December 9, 2024 by PeterHatt

[LocalHero1953]

Having read Tony Kuyper's article, I'm not convinced. He seems to apply LR Auto settings after using a linear profile, which negates to the notion of getting more control over the image. And his example of Linear vs Color profile doesn't convince me that the Linear + Auto is better than Color + Auto. 

I use the Auto settings if I want to have a quick look at what an image could be, or for batch processing, but for my best images I will make my own adjustments. If I understand him correctly, the profile, whether Linear or Standard, is not baking-in adjustments, and one can still make the same adjustments to achieve your desired image.

[PeterHatt]

35 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Having read Tony Kuyper's article, I'm not convinced. He seems to apply LR Auto settings after using a linear profile, which negates to the notion of getting more control over the image. And his example of Linear vs Color profile doesn't convince me that the Linear + Auto is better than Color + Auto. 

The whole point is that because of the curve in most profiles some of the information is taken therefore reducing dynamic range, whereas in a linear profile made for a particular camera you have all the information the camera captured so the ‘auto’ is working with more - that’s the best I can explain 😀

[LocalHero1953]

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19 minutes ago, PeterHatt said:

The whole point is that because of the curve in most profiles some of the information is taken therefore reducing dynamic range, whereas in a linear profile made for a particular camera you have all the information the camera captured so the ‘auto’ is working with more - that’s the best I can explain 😀

What I'm not convinced by is this line in bold. If you apply a curve at import (i.e. at raw conversion for the screen display), why can it not be reversed after import?

I am not arguing that a linear profile is worthless, but Kuyper doesn't explain why it is better than adjusting in LR. His example does not convince me.

[PeterHatt]

5 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

What I'm not convinced by is this line in bold. If you apply a curve at import (i.e. at raw conversion for the screen display), why can it not be reversed after import?

I am not arguing that a linear profile is worthless, but Kuyper doesn't explain why it is better than adjusting in LR. His example does not convince me.

this can explain better than I 
https://theclassicpresets.com/blogs/classic-mag/how-to-create-linear-camera-profiles-and-why-they-are-essential-for-your-photography

[LocalHero1953]

3 minutes ago, PeterHatt said:

this can explain better than I 
https://theclassicpresets.com/blogs/classic-mag/how-to-create-linear-camera-profiles-and-why-they-are-essential-for-your-photography

That article adds nothing to Tony Kuyper's article, and says nothing about losing data by using a different profile. The writer also uses Auto for tone control and film presets. That's fine for them, but I never use film presets, and if I use Auto it's only a starting point for my own edits.

The example given is one I would normally achieve with my own typical edits. I  also doubt the statement that you get 'more dynamic range' - in the example shown I would get the same result by reducing highlights, adjusting white point and adjusting the curve - adjustments I would expect to make for any image I care about.

I could be convinced if there was an article that says that the standard LR profiles are making adjustments which are impossible to reverse in LR, and explain how you lose data with a LR standard profile.

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5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I could be convinced if there was an article that says that the standard LR profiles are making adjustments which are impossible to reverse in LR, and explain how you lose data with a LR standard profile.

I believe that Profiles apply LUTs to the image and it is not possible to reverse this using the standard edit controls or presets. That's the reason that applying. profiles, versus Presets, doesn't change any of the sliders.

As an example, If you apply the Adobe B&W Profile to a Raw it is not possible to revert that using the sliders. You can unset the B&W button in the control panel, but that just re-applies the perviously set colour Profile.

There are lot's of articles describing the way Profiles work with LUT's, but I haven't seen anything directly by Adobe.

[LocalHero1953]

If profiles use LUTs then I can understand that it is not a trivial step to mimic the effect of one profile in another.

I created a linear profile for the Q3 43, then picked an image, applied both the linear profile and Adobe Standard to it, then hit Auto.
Adobe Standard first, then the linear profile.
The difference between them is more obvious in Lightroom than in these jpgs, but it is still not dramatic.

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[LocalHero1953]

And the same image, edited to my preferences.
There's not a lot of difference here, but again, a bit more visible in LR.
The point I would make is that my initial image is just a starting point for what is sometimes quite considerable editing: whether I start with Adobe Standard or a linear profile does not make a significant difference to the amount of editing. nor the quality of the result.

Nevertheless, I appreciate you mentioning this, @PeterHatt! I now have a bit more knowledge about the workings of Lightroom.

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[PeterHatt]

13 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The point I would make is that my initial image is just a starting point for what is sometimes quite considerable editing:

I agree, also using linear profiles is not for every image perhaps just the those with the trickiest lighting where you may (or not) get more detail 

[LocalHero1953]

Just for the record, here are my initial three images, reprocessed with a linear profile. It didn't really change the amount or ease of editing I had to do. It is noticeable that the linear profile controls highlights better from the start (the bright lights), but the data is still there in the Adobe Standard images, and can be easily recovered. (Of course, with these images, the problems are the shadows, not the highlights)

Edit. After posting, I see that the first image is considerably better than in my post #3 above - in retrospect I may have posted the wrong version there. They look very similar in LR.

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Edited December 9, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[SrMi]

10 hours ago, PeterHatt said:

If you use a linear profile I have found you definitely get more dynamic range - I will find my original post and link it 

After reading this article by Tony kuper explaining Linear profiles I have downloaded and imported the Q3 43 linear profile into Camera Raw. It seem good ( remember by design it will look  flat at first ) the logic behind using a linear profile to me is convincing, is  anyone else using a linear profile if so any opinions ?
 

   https://tonykuyper.wordpress.com/2021/07/23/the-linear-profile-a-new-beginning-in-light-room-and-camera-raw/
 

 

You do not get more dynamic range with linear profiles, but you can better manage the highlights in the post. I often use linear profiles in high-contrast scenes where highlights contain relevant detail. Even better results can be obtained by switching from SDR to HDR mode, but LUF does not support HDR images.

[LocalHero1953]

This thread has paid the penalty for digression - what started as relevant to Q3 43 has digressed to linear profiles - and been removed to another part of the forum.