Why I love and hate the Leica M

[pedaes]

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12 minutes ago, lct said:

Too bad HCB did not know

I naturally close one eye, and if I want to keep second eye open it has to be a deliberate act. Been that way for a long time! Don't think it makes me a bad person, and can't see any negative impact on output🤪

Edited December 22, 2024 by pedaes

[pgk]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Yeah, wow, for a photo to be any good it MUST be level, mustn't it.....

Depends on the subject. I detest landscapes which rely on being technically precise and which have wonky horizons, especially seascapes. Sometimes being level is an anathema to the specific subject though. 

[LocalHero1953]

Common sense seems to have gone out of the window in some of the responses. Of course there are images where not being horizontal is a part of the composition. And of course there are images which were probably intended to be horizontal and are which irritating because they are not, and distract from the intention of the photographer.

I straighten images that I intended to be horrizontal, and leave unstraightened those that I deliberately intended to be non horizontal. Images that I intended to be horizontal but accidentally look better at an angle, I will happily claim to be exactly as I intended.

As for the left eye open debate, I keep it open, but it doesn't focus too well (retina issues) and I ignore it most of the time - this is not a matter of choice, it's just how it has always been. I can intentionally use it for watching what's going on outside the frame if it's not visible in the viewfinder. 

Edited December 22, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[NigelG]

I obviously was referencing images that needed to be level not at a “Dutch angle” 🙄

[Markey]

One of the advantages of the RF system, which no other system has, is that it allows you to use both eyes thus enabling you to look at the scene naturally .

The frame lines are imposed on your vision which enables you to compose in the way a painter would do by holding an empty picture frame up and moving it around until they see a pleasing composition.

By not not using an RF in this way (as far as composition is concerned) you may as well use an SLR.

[marchyman]

8 hours ago, NigelG said:

Given the opening screen shot David, if given a rifle, wouldn’t  idiomatically “hit a barn door” if it was over 500 yds away…he’d be way off to the right…

It's a camera with a 56° plus field of view.   The target is what is framed, not some arbitrary point within the frame. This camera user is not trying for accuracy measured in MOA.

[F456]

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On 12/21/2024 at 11:01 PM, lct said:

A tilting screen would render M cameras too thick IMO. You may wish to try an SL3, or the Visoflex 2 which is tiltable at 45° and 90°.

A good point, lct.  I get round it by mostly using a Fujifilm X-Pro 3 for street photography now: a lot of menu but very enjoyable and with great lenses (and the discreet fold down screen).

HOWEVER, I could never envisage not keeping a Leica M system and I still get a lot of enjoyment and good pictures from the Ms in scenic and familiar, less stressful situations where the 'vibe' is more relaxed. Fujifilm for digital and the other bits of electronic tech, but Leica M for the pure battery-free experience and the simplicity and even pleasurable side-effects of analogue such as winding on the film between shots, making each exposure seem valuable. Carrying an M4 with a Summicron 35/2 v4 and dinky, effective rectangular hood is a good feeling, maybe with the 50/2 v4 and 90/2 v3 or 90/2.8 E46 along for the ride though the 35 generally gets most use and feels most natural in the .72x viewfinder. I also like the M3 with matching 50/2.8 collapsible Elmar in silver chrome (the 1990s reissue Elmar-M). Recently while on the subject I have given the 135/4 E46 an airing for buildings and parts of buildings and marvel at the image quality in this repackaged (modern-style lens barrel with built in hood) 1960s lens formulation.

Different horses for different courses really. Sometimes I wonder why I keep the old tech but always come back to it and it is satisfying.

Edited December 22, 2024 by F456
minor additions / corrections

[Jeff S]

16 hours ago, Altair said:

The M11P was paired with an APO 35 and the results where what I would call high art. No camera creates more magic than the M11 with a Noct, and no camera creates high art so effortlessly than a M11M with an APO lens does ( the APO lens just adds that 3% more contrast that stuns!!) A very powerful combination indeed!

 

 

 

 

This reads more from a newcomer to photography, not just to the M system.  So far, this thread is about GAS, not quality pictures, or art (or prints). But right at home on a gear-centric forum.

That said, enjoy the journey; we each have one.  

Jeff

[otto.f]

7 hours ago, Jeff S said:

No camera creates more magic than the M11 with a Noct

🤨

[evikne]

9 minutes ago, otto.f said:

🤨

You edited the quote in such a way that the words came from the wrong person.

[otto.f]

1 hour ago, evikne said:

You edited the quote in such a way that the words came from the wrong person.

Oh yes! Sorry @Jeff S !!

 

@Altair

Edited December 23, 2024 by otto.f

[Cattoo]

On 12/21/2024 at 10:24 PM, Altair said:

5% using a Leica M on a moving subject is super human. Good for you

 Nothing superhuman about it.  It just takes practice.  

 

[Altair]

On 12/22/2024 at 1:28 AM, pedaes said:

The heart of the M is the rangefinder. This is one of many good videos on YouTube to help you with focusing. 

 

Thank you for the video and tip.

 

At this point in my journey with the M11, I can agree that the rangefinder is actually unique and usefull tool and certainly has its place. Absolutely love it with my 35 APO and a Summilux 50 I had tested. But with my 0.95 Noctilux or the 75 1.25 the rangefinder is actually painfully and frustrating experience. I do agree the M should always have a rangefinder as it's core experience.

 

I am backtracking on my previous expression of wanting an articulating or tilting screen. The standard screen is tougher and requires less space resulting in a smaller and longer lasting M. The solution is to develop a better Visoflex or get a second body for difficult to focus lenses. 

 

I have to say I am converting to the M mentality more than I thought I would.

[Altair]

9 hours ago, Jeff S said:

This reads more from a newcomer to photography, not just to the M system.  So far, this thread is about GAS, not quality pictures, or art (or prints). But right at home on a gear-centric forum.

That said, enjoy the journey; we each have one.  

Jeff

Thank you for your analysis 

[Altair]

23 hours ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

I agree to both aspects. 75 Noctilux is a phantastic lens but on an M just not feels right (even less, when used without Visoflex). From what you have been writing so far, I was pretty sure that sooner or later you will succumb to temptation. If you don't mind being a second owner, you can save a lot of money, especially on the 75 Noct.

Thanks for the tip. If I do get the 75 it's definitely going to be used. I could get a used M11M and the 75 for the price of 75 retail! That's shocking!

 

I am putting off that purchase for a year though. I went back to shooting with my 50 0.95 yesterday and it's still wowing me, the honeymoon phase is far from over. I do love the way 75 renders and would live to have both at some time, but not until I have mastered the 50, too much of a good thing could be counter productive.

 

I am very excited to get the 50 Summilux in 2 weeks. What a perfectly balanced lens. It kind of blew my mind how every aspect was perfectly balanced. Leica really do have the best optics. However says the camer doesn't matter has not shot with a Leica M and Leica glass. My passion to go out and shoot has been energised by a factor of 10.

 

I had a major project in mind, my retirement from work and start working on hobbies projects ( build a man cave, build a walk in humidor, rebuild a classic car by hand, and do a coffee table photography book) includes a book that covers the finest hand made items from across the globe. That's the main project, since I picked up my M, which was initially just for fun and exploration, I now have started work on a second project that will also include travel. The concept is to photograph the same major city twice, once the way it is portrayed in media, and once the real city the way the locals see it. The 35mm APO for the perfect media shot, the 35 steel rim reissue for the grundgy real world shot. Captions from city officials and captions from citizens. Would require quite a bit of research and planning but the result should be a genuinely original and interesting coffee table book.

 

I am not a professional photographer by any means, but have been a hobbyist for about 25 years now. I really hope I can pull this off. Will be a fun learning experience either way. I might do my home town and our products first and post here for critique and advice soon. I very much appreciate and respect the wonderful constructive advice I have received so far.

 

Regarding the Z9, I had mentioned I might give that up, the longer I think about it the more I lean towards that decision. I do love Nikon, and still cherish my FM2 and 50 1.4/ 85 1.8 but Leica and Hasselblad are taking over. Getting rid of the Z9 and moving to a SL3 would also mean to give up wildlife ( no associated project for sure, but a for fun aspect of photography l) 

 

Another option i was contemplating today was to go with Sony. The Sony could be used effectively with the Leica glass as the cameras are fairly compact, and they have wildlife capabilities almost on par with Nikon. From a passion perspective, I don't want my camera to be made by a stereo manufacturer and would preffer Nikon, and the SL3 would be a better fit to the Leica glass.....

 

I do apologise for the long post, thinking out loud here. Considering I am embarking on new projects, focusing on what is crucial and letting go of the for fun wildlife and macro aspects of photography until I am done. It's most likely X2D, M11P, SL3.

 

I answered my own question while writing the post.

[Altair]

3 hours ago, otto.f said:

🤨

Why the odd look?

 

I am dead serious, I have owned or tested virtually every "high end" camera and nothing has ever consistently left me as speechless as the M11 with a Noctilux does. The combination of extreme seperation, vivid yet life like colours, just right sharpness, and smooth transition to a background that has a gorgeous bokeh is what i would describe as the reason....but you don't think about those things....your mind just recognises the image as special and beutifull. Nothing like 0.95 and M11 when it.comes to magical pictures man.

[otto.f]

1 hour ago, Altair said:

Why the odd look?

 

I am dead serious, I have owned or tested virtually every "high end" camera and nothing has ever consistently left me as speechless as the M11 with a Noctilux does. The combination of extreme seperation, vivid yet life like colours, just right sharpness, and smooth transition to a background that has a gorgeous bokeh is what i would describe as the reason....but you don't think about those things....your mind just recognises the image as special and beutifull. Nothing like 0.95 and M11 when it.comes to magical pictures man.

I just don't think that the camera is such a big variable in the list of things that are responsible for magic in an image. An SL can do it at least as good with a Noctilux. Photographer, lens and the situation/scene/subject encountered are the most decisive IMO.

[jaapv]

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2 hours ago, Altair said:

Thanks for the tip. If I do get the 75 it's definitely going to be used. I could get a used M11M and the 75 for the price of 75 retail! That's shocking!

 

I am putting off that purchase for a year though. I went back to shooting with my 50 0.95 yesterday and it's still wowing me, the honeymoon phase is far from over. I do love the way 75 renders and would live to have both at some time, but not until I have mastered the 50, too much of a good thing could be counter productive.

 

I am very excited to get the 50 Summilux in 2 weeks. What a perfectly balanced lens. It kind of blew my mind how every aspect was perfectly balanced. Leica really do have the best optics. However says the camer doesn't matter has not shot with a Leica M and Leica glass. My passion to go out and shoot has been energised by a factor of 10.

 

I had a major project in mind, my retirement from work and start working on hobbies projects ( build a man cave, build a walk in humidor, rebuild a classic car by hand, and do a coffee table photography book) includes a book that covers the finest hand made items from across the globe. That's the main project, since I picked up my M, which was initially just for fun and exploration, I now have started work on a second project that will also include travel. The concept is to photograph the same major city twice, once the way it is portrayed in media, and once the real city the way the locals see it. The 35mm APO for the perfect media shot, the 35 steel rim reissue for the grundgy real world shot. Captions from city officials and captions from citizens. Would require quite a bit of research and planning but the result should be a genuinely original and interesting coffee table book.

 

I am not a professional photographer by any means, but have been a hobbyist for about 25 years now. I really hope I can pull this off. Will be a fun learning experience either way. I might do my home town and our products first and post here for critique and advice soon. I very much appreciate and respect the wonderful constructive advice I have received so far.

 

Regarding the Z9, I had mentioned I might give that up, the longer I think about it the more I lean towards that decision. I do love Nikon, and still cherish my FM2 and 50 1.4/ 85 1.8 but Leica and Hasselblad are taking over. Getting rid of the Z9 and moving to a SL3 would also mean to give up wildlife ( no associated project for sure, but a for fun aspect of photography l) 

 

Another option i was contemplating today was to go with Sony. The Sony could be used effectively with the Leica glass as the cameras are fairly compact, and they have wildlife capabilities almost on par with Nikon. From a passion perspective, I don't want my camera to be made by a stereo manufacturer and would preffer Nikon, and the SL3 would be a better fit to the Leica glass.....

 

I do apologise for the long post, thinking out loud here. Considering I am embarking on new projects, focusing on what is crucial and letting go of the for fun wildlife and macro aspects of photography until I am done. It's most likely X2D, M11P, SL3.

 

I answered my own question while writing the post.

Why would you give up wildlife? I have been doing that on Leica since 1988. The M240 with EVF and Vario-Elmar 105-280 R and 1.4 + 2x Apo extenders  did an an impeccable job. 

Edited December 23, 2024 by jaapv

[Altair]

6 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Why would you give up wildlife? I have been doing that on Leica since 1988. The M240 with EVF and Vario-Elmar 105-280 R and 1.4 + 2x Apo extenders  did an an impeccable job. 

If course you could technically do wildlife on the SL system but I doubt i would be able to produce images with the type of impact and pull that I do on my Nikon gear. The thing about the 70-200 and 400 Nikkor lenses in that they are a fixed 2.8 so very decent seperation and as far as wildlife lenses are concerned the sharpness and colours are top notch. Seperating a lion in South African jungles with glorious colours during sunrise produces a truly great picture where both the subject, scene, and quality of the image is something that can be set apart from the millions of wildlife images out there.

 

A Leica telephoto with an extender would not come close to providing the seperation I find necessary. This comes down to what do you want to do with the camera, if it's simply documenting a scene then yes the Leica setup you had mentioned would do a great job, but it wouldn't create the type of artistic photo I always look for.

 

Also, Japanese cameras, Nikon Canon and Sony etc, have far superior AF and detection capabilities. It's truly remarkable how fast my Z9 can detect, lock on, and track a subject. Leicas are slow by design and purpose, could be great for a portrait of a baboon at a zoo, but wouldn't work for a fast moving cheetah in Kenya or a racing camel in Saudi.

 

That said, I am curious about the 90-280 SL lens. I do wonder if it's sharpness and Leica look optics could result in a different but equally impactful photo.

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[jaapv]

Not an SL , although I use it nowadays with the appropriate Sigma lenses but my older work was all done with M cameras and V and R mount lenses up until 2019. I used Canon for a couple of years but saw very little if any advantage. There is very little need for AF doing wildlife. In fact on my SL I often focus manually. BTW the Sigma 70-200 is as good as the Leica 90-280. And 2.8. The remark about separation is beside the reality I fear. At the focal lengths and distances involved DOF is exceedingly narrow at all reasonable apertures.