Why I love and hate the Leica M

[Velo-city]

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@Altair while my list of frustrations with my M are different to yours - I agree it could be far better in many areas. 
 

But you’re kind of in the wrong place to air your feelings here - this is probably the most pro-Leica place on the internet. I can picture most of the comments you’re going to receive.  
 

In short - it’s not the camera (or Leica) - it’s you. 😂

Edited December 1, 2024 by Velo-city

[Tseg]

Sounds like all you need to do is add the Visoflex 2 and all your observed issues will be addressed.

[jaapv]

Only somebody who does not understand why Leica M is the only digital camera that comes in a version WITHOUT a screen can ask for a tilt screen.

[Almizilero]

Nothing against a well implemented tilt screen, but if you're just starting with the M and use the screen and focus peaking, you're doing it wrong. Get the hang of the rangefinder, that's the only reason to buy an M. After using it for a while, you will get as consistent results as with any AF camera. I even shot a wedding this year with the M11 and barely missed a shot. It's just a learning curve, no way to avoid it.

That said, if you want to use the screen or visoflex, set the camera to shoot b&w JPGs. You don't even have to shoot DNG&JPG for this. Just set JPG to BW, set files to DNG and your DNGs will still be in colour, but the screen/visoflex will be in B&W, which makes it easier to see the peaking colours.

[LocalHero1953]

My post #4 was written tongue in cheek but came across more negatively than I intended, and set off a string of other negative posts (no doubt all written with humour in mind as well), so my apologies @Altair!

A more balanced set of comments would cover the fact that the digital M stirs strong emotions here for and against. As it happens I gave up after the M240 because I felt the M10 was going down a heritage cut-de-sac, and that there were ways to develop it that took advantage of new technology without losing what makes it (potentially) a great camera to use: the fine small lenses, the optical viewfinder, unique manual rangefinder, the compact body with classic shape.

The visoflex (and your tilt screen) run counter to both the primacy of the optical viewfinder and the classic shape. I have been surprised to see, when reading posts here about the M, that so many people mainly use the visoflex or rear screen; in their shoes I would have bought a different camera - and did: first the CL and now the Q.

As to the tilt screen, I have tried manual focusing with M lenses on the TL2 rear screen, and it was a PITA - I needed the enlarged view in the visoflex to see critical sharpness. I doubt a tilt screen would bring technical benefit to counter the demerits.

Edited December 1, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[spydrxx]

Party pooper here. My advise is just learn to use the tools you have rather than complaining about the features they lack. It sounds like you need and indeed have a tool which better suits your needs so quit your belly-aching to change the Leica. It is what it is.

[JoshuaR]

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@Altair, I get it, for sure. But your fountain pen analogy is wrong, I think. It's more like a car with a manual transmission. Sometimes people buy the car with the manual transmission and they say, "I wish this were just a little more automatic." But it doesn't work that way. A stick shift is a stick shift. It's supposed to be challenging and fun.

Just keep practicing. Or buy an SL camera, which gives you the M lens experience but in a different way. Many people own SL and M cameras side by side and use the SL for circumstances where the M isn't as strong.

 

[Anbaric]

9 hours ago, Altair said:

Fact of the matter is, the Hassleblad gave me the results, the Leica produced only one truly great image compared to over 30 with the X2D.

I wish I could get one truly great image with any camera, let alone 30.

[pedaes]

2 hours ago, Velo-city said:

most pro-Leica place on the internet.

The clue is in the name-Leica User Forum, with the emphasis on User.

[charlesphoto99]

How about telling us you don't know how to use an M by telling us you don't know how to use an M. Articulated screen...😅🤮

[charlesphoto99]

Again and again and again new users don't understand that the magic in an M is NOT knowing exactly what you'll get. In fact, I often focus, and then don't even look through the viewfinder, moving the camera to an angle that is more interesting than straight ahead. The amazing thing about cameras is they'll take a photo even if you're not looking through the viewfinder! No articulated EVF screen needed. They are dumb objects, we are the smart, creative ones. All those little interesting things that happen at the edges or in the background, esp in a fast moving situation, can't be 'composed' and are the happy surprises when you use this style of camera enough (without EVF). The M is about getting loose, whilst retaining maximum image quality, or at least that was the way it used to be (see Winogrand, Webb, Bresson, et al). One can make boring photographs with any camera. The M, when one lets go of the 'rules' and conventional hangups about gear, can create magic in a way other cameras just can't.  

[LocalHero1953]

4 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Again and again and again new users don't understand that the magic in an M is NOT knowing exactly what you'll get.

Maybe we need a thread titled 'Heard on the Leica Forum'?

Even this ancient user didn't understand this. Naively I try to get the photo I visualised before pressing the shutter release.

[JoshuaR]

8 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Again and again and again new users don't understand that the magic in an M is NOT knowing exactly what you'll get. In fact, I often focus, and then don't even look through the viewfinder, moving the camera to an angle that is more interesting than straight ahead. The amazing thing about cameras is they'll take a photo even if you're not looking through the viewfinder! No articulated EVF screen needed. They are dumb objects, we are the smart, creative ones. All those little interesting things that happen at the edges or in the background, esp in a fast moving situation, can't be 'composed' and are the happy surprises when you use this style of camera enough (without EVF). The M is about getting loose, whilst retaining maximum image quality, or at least that was the way it used to be (see Winogrand, Webb, Bresson, et al). One can make boring photographs with any camera. The M, when one lets go of the 'rules' and conventional hangups about gear, can create magic in a way other cameras just can't.  

This is beautifully said, and resonates with my own experience.

[Crem]

The downfall of the M will be Leica trying to cram every modern feature into it because that’s what the market wants. Tilt screens, hybrid EVF/OVF, more menu options, more features, IBIS, 1TB internal storage, etc. I won’t be surprised if the M13 needs to have an AI chip to do object detection for face and eye tracking because manual focus is too challenging.

My hope is Leica splits the M model into two separate products… Give people a Sony like robotic M with every feature and charge some absurd amount for it. I’ll never buy it, but I hope Leica gets richer from it.

Then use those robot camera profits to make a stripped down and simple rangefinder like the M10-P with some updates. Better battery and the SL2-S sensor would be nice.
 

[Altair]

2 hours ago, Almizilero said:

Nothing against a well implemented tilt screen, but if you're just starting with the M and use the screen and focus peaking, you're doing it wrong. Get the hang of the rangefinder, that's the only reason to buy an M. After using it for a while, you will get as consistent results as with any AF camera. I even shot a wedding this year with the M11 and barely missed a shot. It's just a learning curve, no way to avoid it.

That said, if you want to use the screen or visoflex, set the camera to shoot b&w JPGs. You don't even have to shoot DNG&JPG for this. Just set JPG to BW, set files to DNG and your DNGs will still be in colour, but the screen/visoflex will be in B&W, which makes it easier to see the peaking colours.

That is a very interesting hint! Thank you

[charlesphoto99]

3 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Maybe we need a thread titled 'Heard on the Leica Forum'?

Even this ancient user didn't understand this. Naively I try to get the photo I visualised before pressing the shutter release.

The photo you visualize has little to do with the actual camera, beyond your particular choice of lens, and sensor or film, and is mostly down to you and the choices you make (exposure, focus point, composition, post afterward). Yeah, really. That should be the case with any camera. I mean, it's fine if people want to use the EVF etc. But imo they are missing out on the legacy and raison-d-etre of the M. Do you think Cartier-Bresson, looking through the peephole of his IIIF perfectly composed his full frame decisive moment photos? Of course not, but through enough practice, he knew his boundaries, could pull the camera from his eye and still take the photo as he 'visualized' and capitalize on the surprises that happened. 

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, charlesphoto99 said:

The photo you visualize has little to do with the actual camera, beyond your particular choice of lens, and sensor or film, and is mostly down to you and the choices you make (exposure, focus point, composition, post afterward). Yeah, really. That should be the case with any camera. I mean, it's fine if people want to use the EVF etc. But imo they are missing out on the legacy and raison-d-etre of the M. Do you think Cartier-Bresson, looking through the peephole of his IIIF perfectly composed his full frame decisive moment photos? Of course not, but through enough practice, he knew his boundaries, could pull the camera from his eye and still take the photo as he 'visualized' and capitalize on the surprises that happened. 

Sure, but not everyone does decisive moment street photography. And in CB's case two of his most famous photos were seen and planned in advance, 'Behind the Gare Saint-Lazare' and 'Rue Mouffetard', even if he didn't know exactly the man's leg angles or the boy's expression. Both could have been taken with any other camera - including one with an EVF.

I have no problem with people saying they are more likely to use a M because of its legacy and unique features, and (as in my case) it encourages them to become better photographers. But, as a M owner since 1980, I don't see the magic that makes "not knowing what you'll get" a particular feature.

YMMV

[charlesphoto99]

21 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

But, as a M owner since 1980, I don't see the magic that makes "not knowing what you'll get" a particular feature.

YMMV

It's a mindset. Of course there are photos I take with my M's that I carefully compose, albeit only with the rangefinder because I know what is included in/outside those lines and what's not, from years of practice. And EVF's make me feel like I'm going to have a seizure, literally. YMMV of course.

 Perhaps, for some, the M has become more aspirational than actually functional, and they would be better off with a camera that visualizes for you. 

[LocalHero1953]

8 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

It's a mindset. Of course there are photos I take with my M's that I carefully compose, albeit only with the rangefinder because I know what is included in/outside those lines and what's not, from years of practice. And EVF's make me feel like I'm going to have a seizure, literally. YMMV of course.

 Perhaps, for some, the M has become more aspirational than actually functional, and they would be better off with a camera that visualizes for you. 

I'm puzzled by your approach. Aside from the carefully composed photos, how do you shoot? Point the camera from your waist? Some other angle? Without looking through the viewfinder?* Of course that is a perfectly valid way of taking photos, but to imply that those who don't do this only have a M for aspirational reasons and would be better off with another camera is a bit extreme IMO.

 

*Edit. At Rencontres de la Photographie in Arles last July I came across the work of Chinese photographer Mo Yi, who was a prolific street photographer. In one period, he strapped a camera to his back and remotely took photos at random behind him. He didn't use a Leica. 

Edited December 1, 2024 by LocalHero1953

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[hdmesa]

11 hours ago, Altair said:

Be forewarned....this just probably the most useless post you will read this year, and perhaps stretching to the next. Nothing but the ramblings of someone new to M coming from an X2D and Z9 world. I highly recommend you spend your time more constructively somewhere else.

 

With that warning out of the way, I wanted to share my thoughts as a hobbyist who has started taking his photography more seriousely for the last year and exactly one week with an M.

 

I love the idea of an M. Just the right size, build quality is Swiss watches standard, and the pictures, when perfectly framed and just focus, are unmatched. Even compared to a X2D, there is something magical of what an M with the right lens can do. 

 

For me, what the Leica experience is at its very heart, is being able to walk around with a fairly manageable, enjoyable to see/feel/operate package with the capability of producing some of the most strikingly beautiful images possible. The insistence of Leica to adhere to the legacy of what M has always been adds to the charm of the camera. I liken the last bit to owning and enjoying a Fine fountain pen as compared to a commercial roller ball or a Vacheron Constantin wrist watch compared to a quartz Seiko watch. The Seiko and roller ball pen actually provide more accurate results far more consistently and are naturally far more affordable. But the beuty of the results and certainly the experience of ownership is a different world all together. Manually winding a fine watch is it's own pleasure compared to a set and forget quartz watch, so is manually focusing a range finder compared to auto everything Japanese alternatives.

 

As much as I appreciate the M11, and i certainly am glad I finally took the leap, I really do wish several key changes are done for the next iteration. Mainly a tilt screen ( doesn't ruin the legacy of M, done use it if you prefer contortionist photography) and I do wish Leica are investing in focus assurance tech that would somehow enable us to ensure a higher successfully shot ratio. My only problem with the M11 compared to my other cameras is that focusing takes a good amount of mental thought per shot, which is less time focusing on framing and composition. 

With that in mind, the X2D is the best camera in the world today. The lenses, especially the 55v and 90v, absolutely have the magic look, not quite as much as the best Leica lenses have but up there, and the added value of a tilt screen and autofocus make it a camera i can depend on when it matters. I used it for one day of street photography in London a few days back and used the M11 the day after. Fact of the matter is, the Hassleblad gave me the results, the Leica produced only one truly great image compared to over 30 with the X2D.

As it stands, the Hassleblad is the right tool for me produce results, the Leica is a luxury, which is great, but it can be so much more.

I really hope the M12 takes the lagacy of M and makes for a truly dependable modern camera that can take full advantage of legacy lenses. Just a tilt screen and the real challenge, groundbreaking focus peaking technology.

Sorry for the long winded post, I obviously feel strongly about this. To clarify, I do love my M and enjoy it tremendously and will continue to practice with and without the visoflex while I wait for the groundbreaking M12 

Honestly, I couldn't think of a worse set of lenses to start a new user with than the ones you picked. One digital M and one 35 Summicron would have served you better. And maybe using it all for a few months before coming to any conclusions.