Leica S006 sensor corrosion question

[chrismuc]

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an update

I got a second hand S006 from Leica store Beijing. The camera looks in very nice condition, no visible issues on the sensor when lifting the mirror. No effects from sensor glass corrosion visible on images up to f5.6. At f8 slight spots in even areas, from f11 more spots become visible.

AF is pretty consistent well (sometimes slight shift to foreground), using the S35f2.5, S70f2.5 and S120f2.5 which I also got. The lenses are plenty sharp and low aberrations. I mostly used the 70 and 120 at open aperture or only slightly closed for street photography. Colors are great, as expected. I find the images similar to the M9 in color but slightly less contrast, which gives a bit more latitude to adjust in post, I am fine with that.

But: The camera sensor unfortunately has two issues.

1. A very light one pixel wide visible line vertically in the center where the two exposed tiles from the wafer manufacturing touch.

2. A more visibly vertical line one pixel width of red hot pixels in the right half of the image.

They can be removed in post with some effort. But that's not a nice outlook ... would have to be done in every single image.

Question to other S2/ S2P/ S006/S-E users:

Did you explore similar hot or cold pixel issues and/or visibility of the sensor tiles?

Is it possible to send to Leica Germany dng files and would they be able to write a sensor pixel re-mapping and send me a particular firmware for my camera? 

(I sent them an email and ask for that.)

Or would I have to send the camera to Leica to do that?

Or no way to solve the issue?

If no way or too complicated or too cost intensive, I would return the elsewhere nice camera and get ('try') another one.

Two Chinese friends told me in the meantime, that they had three S CCD cameras in total because all the time one or the other had an issue ... . 

From what I read online, M8 and M9 had similar hot/cold pixels issues with their CCD sensors and Leica could re-map.

I am aware that basically every sensor (CCD or CMOS) has a certain percentage of hot or cold pixels, very most cameras nowadays have that built-in function to carry out a re-mapping of such pixels. Unfortunately the Leica S CCD cameras don't have that function (does the S007 air S3 have it?) 

 

Enclosed 100% crops of the two lines.

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[chrismuc]

the positive news is of course the image quality, the colors, the '3d-pop'

I love it :-)

I used back MF + button AF, and C-AF!

I even could catch some bicycle and scooter riders with the S70f2.5 at open aperture with their face pretty well in focus 

not so bad for that vintage digital MF

some images were in focus but not perfectly sharp, one really must use sufficiently short exposure times

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[chrismuc]

two more

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[chrismuc]

last two

The S f2.5 lenses achieve a DOF corresponding to f2 lenses in 135 format. I would wish, that they would be a bit faster (like the Fujifilm GF 55f1.7 and GF 80f1.7) to achieve a bit more blurry background, but it's fine, it's also a photographic style that makes sense, to communicate the background activity by being still reasonably in focus. 

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[helged]

4 hours ago, chrismuc said:

an update

I got a second hand S006 from Leica store Beijing. The camera looks in very nice condition, no visible issues on the sensor when lifting the mirror. No effects from sensor glass corrosion visible on images up to f5.6. At f8 slight spots in even areas, from f11 more spots become visible.

AF is pretty consistent well (sometimes slight shift to foreground), using the S35f2.5, S70f2.5 and S120f2.5 which I also got. The lenses are plenty sharp and low aberrations. I mostly used the 70 and 120 at open aperture or only slightly closed for street photography. Colors are great, as expected. I find the images similar to the M9 in color but slightly less contrast, which gives a bit more latitude to adjust in post, I am fine with that.

But: The camera sensor unfortunately has two issues.

1. A very light one pixel wide visible line vertically in the center where the two exposed tiles from the wafer manufacturing touch.

2. A more visibly vertical line one pixel width of red hot pixels in the right half of the image.

They can be removed in post with some effort. But that's not a nice outlook ... would have to be done in every single image.

Question to other S2/ S2P/ S006/S-E users:

Did you explore similar hot or cold pixel issues and/or visibility of the sensor tiles?

Is it possible to send to Leica Germany dng files and would they be able to write a sensor pixel re-mapping and send me a particular firmware for my camera? 

(I sent them an email and ask for that.)

Or would I have to send the camera to Leica to do that?

Or no way to solve the issue?

If no way or too complicated or too cost intensive, I would return the elsewhere nice camera and get ('try') another one.

Two Chinese friends told me in the meantime, that they had three S CCD cameras in total because all the time one or the other had an issue ... . 

From what I read online, M8 and M9 had similar hot/cold pixels issues with their CCD sensors and Leica could re-map.

I am aware that basically every sensor (CCD or CMOS) has a certain percentage of hot or cold pixels, very most cameras nowadays have that built-in function to carry out a re-mapping of such pixels. Unfortunately the Leica S CCD cameras don't have that function (does the S007 air S3 have it?) 

 

Enclosed 100% crops of the two lines.

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Love the images! 

Re your question regarding hot pixel removal as menu option on S007 and S3: No such option (but SL2 and SL3 have it).

Back to 006: Some hot/dead pixels are not uncommon. But lines of dead pixels should not be seen, possibly except for one line when shadows are heaviky lufted, presumably where two wafels are stitched together. I saw such a veetical line (by chance) on S006 after lifting shadows in long exposure images by many stops in Lightroom. I was concerned, but a second 006 body showed the same line in the same position under the same conditions, so I guess this is how it is... But you should not see lines of dead pixels in 'ordinary' exposed and not overly adjusted images in post. 

[Tirpitz666]

Hi, very nice street pics indeed. and color are pretty amazing as expected. Sorry to hear about those sensor issues, the middle line is likely something unavoidable, if the sensor is designed like that and hopefully will pop up only in extreme exposure scenarios, the other line is unfortunate and honestly a Leica Store should have at least declare it before selling the camera. At least in "normal" shots, none of those is visible at normal magnifications..

Edited November 18, 2024 by Tirpitz666

[chrismuc]

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I asked Leica Germany if they can do a pixel remapping for the sensor. My understanding was, that Leica is offering this in particular for Leica cameras with CCD sensors like M8, M9, S2/ S2P/ S006/ S-E.

Their reply: "The probability to accidentally destroy the sensor by applying a pixelmapping is very high, so we don't offer it. We only offer an upgrade to S007."

Sorry what nonsense is that? Pixelmapping is applied by software after the image is read out of the sensor. It does not affect the sensor (hardware) at all. (correct me if I am wrong)s

Anyhow, can't expect any support from the home base in that matter. Also, seems no software from some smart hacker available out there. Like pixelfixer.org, but seems he's stopped in 2015 further developing his program, and at that time no S CCD camera dng support.

[Tirpitz666]

Hi, nonsense indeed, but at the end, if you are happy with the camera and how much you paid for it, I'd keep it at the end, since those defects are basically invisible in normal shots. Maybe you can just ask the shop for a discount for not returning it, taking into account that if you want to resell it in the future, a prospective buyer could do the same to you.

[Stuart Richardson]

That is a strange response. I would encourage you to try to talk to another person there, if possible, to confirm. Or talk to one of the Leica country agencies like Leica USA. I had this on my DMR when I first bought it and they fixed it. Also on the M9 at one point. Again, fixed, no problem. I thought that they had fixed this issue with the automatic dark frame that Leicas tend to do. I think it is once a month or so that the cameras automatically take a dark frame (you can hear it take a picture when the camera is turned off) and it will use that dark frame to subtract any artifacts. You can try to advance the calendar in the camera a few months and see if it will do a dark frame. I can't remember if the S does this.

It is my understanding that this is caused by one pixel or pixel amp being broken, which causess a cascade effect down the line of pixels in the same column. As far as I understood, the solution is to turn off that one pixel and map it to the surrounding pixels. So the solution may indeed be pre-software, but either way, I found that Leica did it for me at least twice, never mentioning any difficulty or risk.

Edited November 19, 2024 by Stuart Richardson

[davidmknoble]

On 11/18/2024 at 1:37 AM, helged said:

your question regarding hot pixel removal as menu option on S007 and S3: No such option (but SL2 and SL3 have it)

My recollection is that you can send a DNG to Leica and they can return a patch or firmware fix that negates the hot pixels.  I know I have had that for an M camera.  Assume the same for the S?  Anyone know for sure?

Too quick on the post!  I see the response now and it sounds like they said ‘no’ to the S006.  I do think the M camera that I had it done for was CMOS (M-D 262).

Edited November 23, 2024 by davidmknoble

[davidmknoble]

@chrismuc, from your original post, I did not see a response to help determine how much might be dust in the lens.  If you have two lenses, two images stopped down to f/22 will show different patterns for dust in the lenses.  I recently (this summer) had Leica clean the elements on 2 CS lenses and they did a super job and it didn’t take more than about 2 months (I know …).   If you edit one and remove the dust, and then apply that edit to the second one, you’ll see the ‘additional’ spots as they will not be removed.

Sounds like you are enjoying it!

Edited November 23, 2024 by davidmknoble

[chrismuc]

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Hi David! 

The lenses I bought 2nd hand look very clean. And: My understanding is that dust or specks or fungus or a scratch in the lens / on lens surfaces won't be projected onto the sensor surface as sharp dots but they create stray light and therefore reduce slightly the contrast of the lens, so I have doubts if one could see a difference in an image, did you in an A-B test?

I was able to negotiate the price of the camera from Leica Store Beijing due to the hot pixel line issue, so I bought it because everything else looks very positive: General good condition, AF works very well, corrosion on the sensor not so bad. And - by further insisting - I finally succeeded to convince Leica Germany to do a pixelmapping, which has to be done in-house, it is not possible by sending a dng file, like with M cameras. They still want to inform me about the cost and lead time, I keep you updated.

In the meantime I use the camera, and again, the Kodak CCD sensor with Leica color science and with the S lenses produce (in my eyes) wonderful images. The AF with the 70 and 120 is mostly reliable, with the 35 a bit less.

 

[chrismuc]

one more with the S 120f2.5 M

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[davidmknoble]

@chrismuc fantastic!  So glad you were able to get some help from Germany!  The S system has been their flagship system and what you asked makes sense if they still have the equipment.  Glad it will work out.

I am certain that using f/16 or f/22 will show dust as sharp dots (as it has on my old R lenses) but I don’t have experience in the corrosion issues, so maybe those are much sharper…

It looks like the color is coming out splendid from yours!

[chrismuc]

A UI topic:

In many cameras, one can decide in the camera menu the direction of certain dials according personal preference. I find the direction of the dial on the Leica S for setting the aperture counterintuitive but I am afraid there is no option to reverse it.  Please proof me wrong 🙂

[Pieter12]

19 hours ago, chrismuc said:

A UI topic:

In many cameras, one can decide in the camera menu the direction of certain dials according personal preference. I find the direction of the dial on the Leica S for setting the aperture counterintuitive but I am afraid there is no option to reverse it.  Please proof me wrong 🙂

OK. You're wrong. Your intuition is off. Many, many cameras have aperture dials, shutter speed controls and focusing rings that turn in different directions. That is why I tend to stick to a limited number of brands.

[davidmknoble]

Firmware 5.0.0.0 for the S007 provided custom controls allowing the direction of the rear wheel to be adjusted left or right to stop down.  I believe the firmware 1.1.0.0 for the S3 has that in it as well.

 

[chrismuc]

Ah interesting. I thought I installed the latest available FW (2.5?) for the S006 which does not offer that feature but let me check again if there is maybe a later FW version. 

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[Tirpitz666]

I have FW 2.5 on my S-E and the option to change the dial direction is actually there 🙂

[chrismuc]

Many thx Tirpitz, you are right, found it too in my FW 2.5, totally oversaw that option. A little but important improvement in handling for me. How do you enjoy your new 'youngtimer vintage' camera?