Leica m10 or m11 DoF smaller than with Leica SL?

[Johannes Adriaan]

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Can anyone who knows the m10 or m11 and the SL concur or comment on whether the DoF with a fast lens is smaller than for the same lens used on a SL? I have used the latter for years and I am able to get a focus rate of 99% thanks to the great EVF (stills and street photography). Because I’m drawn to the rangefinder experience (also due to the weight and size) I have been trying an m10 for a week and it occurred to me that for subjects shot with a Summilux 50mm 1.4 asph from a long, medium and short distance (<1m) the focus seems to be much more critical on a rangefinder than on the SL, due to the smaller DoF. Obviously my short experience with the m is not helping me to nail focus. However, comparing the results from identical scenes with the m10 versus the SL clearly seemed to show that the DoF is smaller with the rangefinder.

I am quite surprised about this outcome. Can anyone comment? And if the results from my comparison are valid, could this have anything to do with the sensor? Quite stunning if true.
BTW I know apps and websites such as Photopills offer DOF calculations but I can’t find their advice for the newer m nor for the SL.

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[Photoworks]

SL3 and M11 Looks the same with the same lens

 

[Siriusone59]

Try focusing using live view on your M camera.  Compare your range finder to that image...it could be that the range finder or lens needs calibrating.  Check with more than one lens if possible to decide what is off a bit...the RF or lens.

Also, some lenses  wide open tend to front or back focus especially at close distance.  I check mine with a tape measure, if I focus with the range finder at say five feet but the image is in focus either in front or behind the 5ft mark then I'll use live view or guesstimate how much to allow for that lens and step forward or back a bit to compensate.

Edited November 11, 2024 by Siriusone59
something occurred to me

[jgeenen]

DoF is exactly the same on SL and M - provided you examine the images at the same magnification. If you compare a 60mpix M11 to a 24mpix at 1:1, then the magnification of the M11 pic is much larger than the SL pic. It is the nature ( aka definition) of DoF that you have to compare the images at the same magnification on eye level (the definition requires a specific viewing distance of a full-size print)

[Lee S]

Depth of field remains the same for both cameras, it will appear thinner when zoomed in at 100% on the M11 due to 55% ish more linear pixels. 

[kiwidad]

18 hours ago, Johannes Adriaan said:

Can anyone who knows the m10 or m11 and the SL concur or comment on whether the DoF with a fast lens is smaller than for the same lens used on a SL? I have used the latter for years and I am able to get a focus rate of 99% thanks to the great EVF (stills and street photography). Because I’m drawn to the rangefinder experience (also due to the weight and size) I have been trying an m10 for a week and it occurred to me that for subjects shot with a Summilux 50mm 1.4 asph from a long, medium and short distance (<1m) the focus seems to be much more critical on a rangefinder than on the SL, due to the smaller DoF. Obviously my short experience with the m is not helping me to nail focus. However, comparing the results from identical scenes with the m10 versus the SL clearly seemed to show that the DoF is smaller with the rangefinder.

I am quite surprised about this outcome. Can anyone comment? And if the results from my comparison are valid, could this have anything to do with the sensor? Quite stunning if true.
BTW I know apps and websites such as Photopills offer DOF calculations but I can’t find their advice for the newer m nor for the SL.

camera has no impact whatsoever on  DOF. different lenses at same setting may vary slightly dues to measurement inaccuracies but all 50mm f2 lenses should have the same DOF in theory. Bokeh and opinions seems to vary but math is always gonna be math

 

[lct]

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Cameras do have an impact on DoF if they have not the same format. DoF is not the same on FF and crop cameras for instance. But your 2 FF cameras have the same format so the same 50/1.4 lens will have the same DoF on an M11 and an SL2.

[Johannes Adriaan]

23 hours ago, Siriusone59 said:

Try focusing using live view on your M camera.  Compare your range finder to that image...it could be that the range finder or lens needs calibrating.  Check with more than one lens if possible to decide what is off a bit...the RF or lens.

Also, some lenses  wide open tend to front or back focus especially at close distance.  I check mine with a tape measure, if I focus with the range finder at say five feet but the image is in focus either in front or behind the 5ft mark then I'll use live view or guesstimate how much to allow for that lens and step forward or back a bit to compensate.

You’re absolutely right. It appears there is indeed a problem w the 50 summilux, the other lenses (including a 90mm 2.5) fared much better w the rangefinder. 

[Johannes Adriaan]

Thank you all for your answers. It appears my summilux needs calibrating.

[Derbyshire Man]

20 minutes ago, Johannes Adriaan said:

You’re absolutely right. It appears there is indeed a problem w the 50 summilux, the other lenses (including a 90mm 2.5) fared much better w the rangefinder. 

Yep, I’ve got a thread which everyone is ignoring! My summilux 50mm FLE2 focuses right at the back of the focal zone when wide open. This means that not only is the focal zone narrow at f1.4 but any movement away from the subject or camera renders an immediate fail. Much to my surprise there is focus shift as I stop it down to 5.6/8 and the point of focus in the focal zone moves forward. I can see they’ve had to push the focus right to the back to get a semblance of focus across f1.4-f5.6

I had rather thought that the FLE element was to avoid that issue!

When it hits focus I love the image but it’s far from a dead cert. It’s really notable when used at medium distance for landscape etc with something patterned like grass. You can see that the focus is running out of steam as it approaches the thing I’ve focussed on. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2024 by Derbyshire Man

[Johannes Adriaan]

On 11/12/2024 at 10:23 PM, Derbyshire Man said:

Yep, I’ve got a thread which everyone is ignoring! My summilux 50mm FLE2 focuses right at the back of the focal zone when wide open. This means that not only is the focal zone narrow at f1.4 but any movement away from the subject or camera renders an immediate fail. Much to my surprise there is focus shift as I stop it down to 5.6/8 and the point of focus in the focal zone moves forward. I can see they’ve had to push the focus right to the back to get a semblance of focus across f1.4-f5.6

I had rather thought that the FLE element was to avoid that issue!

When it hits focus I love the image but it’s far from a dead cert. It’s really notable when used at medium distance for landscape etc with something patterned like grass. You can see that the focus is running out of steam as it approaches the thing I’ve focussed on. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

While I’m not familiar enough with rangefinder and off focus issues of lenses to comment on your specific problem, it does sound very similar to the one that I experienced during my tryout of the m10.

Honestly, having read your and other users’ posts about Leica m11 freeze issues (even years after its release!), I am starting to think it may be better to stick to my SL (or update this to SL2-S). I really love the handling, size and weight of the rangefinder but if buying this system includes having to spend hundreds of €/£ to lens adjustments, regular checks of the camera, viewfinder eye pieces a/o magnifiers etc, etc, I am foreseeing this could easily become a distraction from the photography itself. 

[Smudgerer]

On 11/12/2024 at 10:23 PM, Derbyshire Man said:

Yep, I’ve got a thread which everyone is ignoring! My summilux 50mm FLE2 focuses right at the back of the focal zone when wide open. This means that not only is the focal zone narrow at f1.4 but any movement away from the subject or camera renders an immediate fail. Much to my surprise there is focus shift as I stop it down to 5.6/8 and the point of focus in the focal zone moves forward. I can see they’ve had to push the focus right to the back to get a semblance of focus across f1.4-f5.6

I had rather thought that the FLE element was to avoid that issue!

When it hits focus I love the image but it’s far from a dead cert. It’s really notable when used at medium distance for landscape etc with something patterned like grass. You can see that the focus is running out of steam as it approaches the thing I’ve focussed on. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, in not ignoring your Summilux post, I had similar issues, plus it's size on an M started to annoy me after trying out a Voigtlander Nokton 50 1.5 lens. I sold the Summilux and bought / kept the Voigtlander. I could see little or no difference in the lens performances that bothered me and the VM is smaller, more compact than the 'Lux. The only thing I did miss was a focussing tab, but bought a TTA stick-on one and "job done"....................