Olive green Leica iii

[lalo]

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Hi,

I have come across an olive green Leica iiic (No.245XXX). It has insignias from the war. Is this an authentic item or is it more likely to have been painted afterwards?

Best regards

lalo

Edited October 17, 2024 by lalo

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[Anbaric]

Hard to say much without photos. Lots of wartime 'military' cameras aren't authentic, ranging from crudely modified Soviet models that would be difficult to mistake for a IIIc, to repaints of genuine Leicas. Some wartime IIIc bodies have grey paint, but I haven't heard of olive green, which sounds suspicious. As far as I know, this wasn't used until the post-war period in Germany (there are genuine military M3s with this finish). What are the insignias?

Edited October 17, 2024 by Anbaric

[lalo]

Sorry for the misinformation. I mixed up my serial numbers.  The camera is a III. I will post a photo

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[Anbaric]

It's a fake, I'm afraid - a refinished Soviet camera (Zorki 1).

Edited October 17, 2024 by Anbaric

[lalo]

Thank you for you quick reply. What signs tells it is a fake?

 

[willeica]

10 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

It's a fake, I'm afraid - a refinished Soviet camera (Zorki 1).

Agreed. This is not a Leica. Check the rangefinder cam inside the lens mount. It will be triangular rather than round.

William 

[Anbaric]

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21 minutes ago, lalo said:

Thank you for you quick reply. What signs tells it is a fake?

This site has some of the telltale signs (will need to copy and paste non-https link):

http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-213.html

The way the front viewfinder surround bulges out from the top is the first thing I look for. Most Soviet Leica copies have this. The gap between the body covering and the lens mount tells us it's a Zorki rather than the other common Soviet model, the FED. Both the FED and Zorki would originally have been 'honest' copies of the Leica II (note that there is no slow speed dial), but at some point the original Soviet engravings will have been ground off and replaced by 'Leica' engravings, the chrome generally stripped off, and the camera either repainted like yours, left in a bare brass finish, or re-plated. Something similar has probably happened to the (Soviet) lens. Insignia like the Reichsadler on the lens cap are warnings in themselves. Real military cameras of the period generally just had the name of the service etc. engraved, without symbols.

You can read more about the various Zorki models in their original form here:

https://www.sovietcams.com/cameras/detail/451ys1r7v4zgcvkb96rydzb6x5

Edited October 17, 2024 by Anbaric

[lalo]

Thank you so much. I have come across a collection of Leicas that has real and fake ones mixed up in boxes and drawers.

Here is another example. Should have been a Leica If according to the serial number, 674648, but looks lik a IIf.What is wrong here?

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[Anbaric]

This one is a genuine Leica. Looks like a IIf, red dial variant - 2 screws on the accessory shoe, can't see a slow speed dial, but has a rangefinder cover. If you'd like to ID any others, it's best to post images of the whole top and the front.

You can get discrepancies because the publicly available serial number lists aren't 100% accurate, and because some cameras were later upgraded to higher spec models at the factory, but kept their original serial numbers.

Edited October 17, 2024 by Anbaric

[spydrxx]

Looks like my iif. I'd check the rf cam though. If you're interested in purchasing it, I'd probably factor into the negotiations the price of a CLA unless the seller can provide papers documenting one. I'd check the shutter speeds to ensure they all sound reasonably accurate, the shutter surtain, and, of course, the rangefinder.

[willeica]

11 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Looks like a (genuine) IIf. You can get discrepancies because the publicly available serial number lists aren't 100% accurate, and because some cameras were later upgraded to higher spec models at the factory.

Definitely a IIf and it looks like a Red Dial Version - the numbers on the speed dial are important. Some of these had a max speed of 1/500th and some had 1/1000th . When posting photos for identification purposes here it is important that all of the details are visible.

William 

[nitroplait]

20 hours ago, lalo said:

Thank you for you quick reply. What signs tells it is a fake?

 

Any Leica (or any object for that matter) with a Nazi Swastika is a fake until proven otherwise.

Even the Nazis didn't plaster swastika's on every object they used.

Common sense is your friend.

[250swb]

6 hours ago, nitroplait said:

Any Leica (or any object for that matter) with a Nazi Swastika is a fake until proven otherwise.

Even the Nazis didn't plaster swastika's on every object they used.

Common sense is your friend.

Equally Leica had more taste than to paint the vulcanite and the cold shoe all the same colour.

[willeica]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

Equally Leica had more taste than to paint the vulcanite and the cold shoe all the same colour.

https://www.leitz-auction.com/en/Leica-M3-olive-Bundeseigentum-First-Batch/A00138

I suppose you would blame the client for this one 😇

William 

[250swb]

8 hours ago, willeica said:

https://www.leitz-auction.com/en/Leica-M3-olive-Bundeseigentum-First-Batch/A00138

I suppose you would blame the client for this one 😇

William 

Touché! 

[wizard]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb willeica:

I suppose you would blame the client for this one 😇

I was shocked when reading the asking price, and relieved when learning this lot was not sold. Come on guys, this is just one of quite a few olive painted M3s. It may be worth a certain premium, but 80000,- € is simply ridiculous.

[willeica]

1 hour ago, wizard said:

I was shocked when reading the asking price, and relieved when learning this lot was not sold. Come on guys, this is just one of quite a few olive painted M3s. It may be worth a certain premium, but 80000,- € is simply ridiculous.

Some more shock for you. 

https://www.leitz-auction.com/en/Leica-M3-olive-Bundeseigentum/AI-41-40568

How does €228,000 sound to you? There is no such thing as a set price at auction. 

https://www.leitz-auction.com/en/Leica-M4-olive-Bundeseigentum-The-Second-One/AI-41-40639

€540,000 for an olive green M4? 

Olive green Bundeswehr and Bundeseigentum cameras can fetch quite a bit on their day and it is the auction process that determines the prices.

William 

[wizard]

Am 19.10.2024 um 15:18 schrieb willeica:

... and it is the auction process that determines the prices.

I know that very well (have participated in quite a few art auctions myself), but those prices are still ridiculous.

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[willeica]

22 hours ago, wizard said:

I know that very well (have participated in quite a few art auctions myself), but those prices are still ridiculous.

You obviously understand how the auction process works. You may consider the prices ridiculous, but somebody else was willing to pay them. The idea that there is a set value for items which come up at auction is a common fallacy. At the lower end of the scale where dealers buy with the intention of resale there may be a degree of truth in this, but at the top end, where wealthy collectors battle to purchase very rare items, this is not the case and there is plenty of evidence for this. 

William 

[wizard]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb willeica:

... but at the top end, where wealthy collectors battle to purchase very rare items, this is not the case

Which is exactly why I said those prices are ridiculous 🙂.