workflow for B&W

[david911]

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I am still researching my way back to photography. I want to approach things in an old fashioned way, but with digital, not film. I have pretty much decided on

• Camera: M11-D (maybe a M11-M)
• Primary Lens: Voigtlander Nokton 50 1.2 (maybe a Summilux ASPH 50)
• Printer: Epson Surecolor P700

What I remain confused about is post processing workflow. I am primarily concerned with B&W, and I want to get to physical prints. Not huge prints either, no bigger than A3.

Let's say I go out on a weekly shoot, where I make somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 exposures. I treat the SD card like a roll of film, eject it from the camera and put it my computer (MacBook Pro). 

It seems to me that I need to do the following:

1. Screen through the 50 exposures and discard 45 of them as not being worthy - what software do I use to do this efficiently? I would probably want to do a rough B&W conversion on the batch, and then quickly sort through them looking at them at reasonable size. (I used to do this with a contact sheet and a loupe)
2. Make a "proper" B&W conversion from RAW and crop. I seem to be seeing a lot of references to Silver Efx, is that the way to go? If it is, am I converting to TIFF at this point
3. Make general adjustments, e.g. exposure, contrast, etc. Is this done in Silver Efx? or do I move to a different software
4. Probably discard another 3 images at this stage, won't get to printing, but I would want to save them
5. Make more specific adjustments, e.g. burning, dodging, masking background, etc. same question as 3
6. Make fancy corrections - e.g. AI assisted removal of objects, etc. I am not a big fan of this, and will only be doing it rarely, but I assume this needs to be done in Photoshop or Affinity Photo 2
7. Save the completed image. As TIFF? I could put this in Apple Photos, or leave as a file on the computer. Is this likely to be a large file? I was messing around and wound up savings some files that were like 350MB (can't remember exactly what I did)
8. Print the image or two. Should I use the Epson software to start, or is it worth just jumping into fancier software like Imageprint

Do I have this workflow right?

The Adobe suite seems to be standard, but I'm not a huge fan of needing to license it forever, and I am not a pro, and won't be doing pro volumes of images, so it might be overkill.

DxO has software, Capture 1 has software. both seem reasonable alternatives.

As a testing start, I have licensed Photomator and Affinity Photo 2, but there does not seem to be much support for the former (though I think it will do 1 - 3).

There are probably many ways to accomplish what I need to, but I have not been able to find resources that look at this process from start to finish.

Any guidance would be appreciated,

Thanks,

David

[Jeff S]

You raise questions about many topics.  There are many threads here discussing each, including preferred software, the Adobe subscription model, PP workflows, printer and printing software, etc. A quick perusal of pages in this DPP forum section will reveal many, and specific searches will keep you busy for days.

As a start, here are a couple of discussions related just to workflows…

 

As an aside, I rarely delete files, just as I tended to keep film negatives. Storage is cheap, and opinions can change when revisiting images, in my experience. One can also learn from mistakes, and from shooting habits.

Also, popular PP software such as LR and Photoshop typically have dedicated guide books, free video tutorials, and workshops, some geared specifically to B&W. Many of these are discussed in the threads described.

Jeff

Edited October 14, 2024 by Jeff S

[250swb]

I think the Nik collection from DxO is the most efficient way to go, but run it as a plug-in with Lightroom or Photoshop, and use Adobe Bridge as your browser. You can do most of what you need in Silver Efex but you still need all the other things in Lightroom etc for sizing and putting out to the media or to print. What you essentially have are all the choices possible in the darkroom but on steroids. Do initial processing in ACR and save for further work in Silver Efex as an RGB TIFF, never use Greyscale or save to Greyscale even though ostensibly it is a B&W image because true B&W is never totally devoid of a warm or cool tone.

[osaf]

@david911, if you go for b&w only let's go for a M11M ....

about your questions...

1) For WIN computer the explorer works fine and shows previews of DNG, I guess there is a similar tool on MAC OS.

2) not needed if you go for a M11M.

3), 4), 5) and cropping can be merged and done in a RAW converter as Lightroom, DxO, C1, ....  If you like open source, RawTherapee is a good choice.

6) yes, if needed.

7) jpg with high quality setting are ok. But keep the DNG, there are like film negatives.

 

 

[Doug A]

The workflow looks fine. I don't see anything that can't be done very well with Apple Finder (1, 4, 7), Apple Photos (1, 7), Affinity Photo 2 (1, 2, 3, 5, 6) and Epson Print Layout (a free download) (8). 

Coming from a 50+ year background of film and darkroom I like to have physical contact pages of my digital images. I use ContactPage Pro to make them. 

[david911]

Thanks everyone, this has been helpful. As I am doing my research, I find posts evolve very quickly into discussions of details, and lack the big picture.

I think Silver Efx Pro looks like it will be good for me, and I will probably just pair it with DxO PhotoLab 8 which has good raw conversion and lens corrections. I am a bit concerned about file sizes. I believe a Silver Efx save edits for later TIFF might be upwards of 500Mb, which will eat up storage quite quickly, but I guess I will just have to deal with that.

Given my aversion to AI and my disinterest in making changes to the content of images, I am not really seeing a use for the power of Affinity Photo or Photoshop. Do many people get along without these editors?

Cheers,

 

David

[Jeff S]

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People tend to like the software that they spend time getting to learn and grow comfortable with. I have the Adobe Photo Plan (includes Photoshop and LR for 10 bucks a month), but use LR Classic for the vast majority of my edits.  But I print using ImagePrint Black, which additionally provides some excellent final print editing tools.  I experimented with Silver Efex, but found it redundant for my editing and printing needs.

Last time I explored software options (years ago when it appeared Adobe might abandon desk top users), DxO was unable to support Leica Monochrom files, and was slow in general recognizing new Leica gear.  Adobe never had that problem, closely coordinating with Leica.

Jeff

[david911]

Yes - I forgot DxO does not support M11M, so I need to wait until I actually purchase a camera before deciding (I am leaning towards M11-D at this point). They are later to the party with specific camera and lens support than Adobe.

I think you are right, people generally like what they learn, which is why the posts with comparisons often dwell on details, because if things are working no one wants to switch to something that requires relearning everything.

I'm seeing the Adobe photo plan at $19.95 a month, not $10. I am not leaning towards this as I don't think I need the continuous upgrades. Once every 2 - 3 years seems fine to me, maybe even longer, unless there is some killer new feature.

[Jeff S]

$9.99… I don’t use cloud storage (and would switch software if Adobe ever mandated it). 
https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/photography/compare-plans.html

One of the benefits of the subscription plan is that all upgrades are automatically and immediately included. LR Classic has improved dramatically over the years.  I’ve re-printed old files, with discernible improvements.  The reason I no longer use Photoshop much is because LR Classic has improved so significantly. Ten bucks a month is peanuts in the overall context of my photo costs; and huge bang for the buck for me.

But I still wouldn’t be without ImagePrint, despite its expense.  Value added extends far beyond one time cost.  

Jeff

Edited October 15, 2024 by Jeff S

[david911]

huh - I never saw that price. weird.

 

[hansvons]

On 10/15/2024 at 9:14 PM, david911 said:

I'm seeing the Adobe photo plan at $19.95 a month, not $10. I am not leaning towards this as I don't think I need the continuous upgrades. Once every 2 - 3 years seems fine to me, maybe even longer, unless there is some killer new feature.

There are endless discussions on the subscription issue on these forums. I’m not going into this debate, but just want to remind that an M11 with lenses is preposterously expensive. Trying to save at the backend of the craft makes no sense to me.

As I see it and deriving from your original post, you’d be happy with a convenient one-stop solution that can tackle BW well. That is Adobe LR. It’s by far the most versatile and mature photography-specific app on the market, with Capture One the only contender in the same league but more aimed at fashion and event photography and client-attended editing sessions. 

I’d say bite the bullet, get the Adobe photography plan without the cloud option, and maybe buy the SilverFX plugin from DxO. I find it superfluous, as Lightroom offers you all the tools to achieve the same/similar, only it needs some deep dive into photo editing. All other photo editing solutions on the market, including DxO and whatnot don't play a role in professional photography. There’s a reason for it. The only (experimental) exception, with no proper cataloguing is Luminar Neo, as they go a new route regarding editing by leveraging AI big time, which can lead to interesting results or gross kitsch. Mostly the latter. 

[LocalHero1953]

The advantage of choosing Adobe or C1 over one of the less-used apps is the same as with any other dominant supplier: there's a vast resource of advice, learning aids, forums, add-ons etc, all in a range of text, graphic and video formats, which makes it easy to find support in a style that suits you, and, if you have a problem, someone has probably encountered it and solved it before. 

I also pay for the Adobe LR+PS subscription, with no cloud storage. The main upgrades in the past year or so have most definitely been on the AI front, so, if you want to avoid AI, then you won't see much benefit from a subscription - except that standalone Lightroom is no longer an option!

I am one person who sees a benefit in the AI tools. A lot of my photography is of drama, music and dance, and I have no qualms about using AI to remove distracting objects like light switches, fire exit signs, pimples, the stage manager's hand. Even if your intention is to show everything that is in the scene, then AI tools work better than most at removing sensor dust or hairs on scanned negatives. Digital noise is not in the original scene either, and AI denoise tools are the best there are at removing it where it is distracting.

As I've got better at using Lightroom, I find SilverEfex less useful, and I find its tools difficult to target. It's still loaded as an add-on, but I haven't touched it for a couple of years. 

Edited October 17, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[david911]

Thanks for the comments on Lightroom. I think the best argument is that it is the dominant tool, with the most help available.

The pricing model has its pros and cons, but seeing $10 per month makes it half as expensive than I thought it was, so that is a good thing. It is certainly a "safe" choice. I just don't like being locked in to a system (knowledge wise) where I have no control over future costs. If I buy software, it will do the same thing (which will probably be fine), forever, as long as I don't upgrade. In my professional life, I have been paying $7000 per year for software that has barely changed in 10 years - I am locked in, and I don't like it.

Still at $10/month, it is back under consideration.

[Jeff S]

At some point even your purchased software may no longer be compatible with your computer’s upgraded O/S. There are many benefits keeping all software current, including for security purposes. Trade offs, always.

A subscription can be cancelled at any time and, especially with local storage and backup, one can move files to another software if ever necessary. Even C1 seems to be moving to a type of subscription model, (from what I’ve read), and the current prices don’t seem any bargain compared to Adobe.

Even an extra $120 bucks a year (if Photo Plan costs double to $20) would be peanuts in my overall photo costs.  And I’d always be current. I also think you’re significantly underestimating the improvements in LR Classic, even in the last year or two with masking tools, local adjustments, noise reduction, camera/lens updates, and so on.

Jeff

[zeitz]

Back to the topic about digital B&W.  This is regardless of software.  I attended a photo workshop with Alan Ross.  Alan started his career working for Ansel Adams and still prints Ansel Adams' negatives for the Ansel Adams Gallery.  During the workshop we got to use the Phase One medium format camera system with both color and monochrome backs.  Alan got better results from the color back because he had access to the color layers.  That is, once the exposure is made with the B&W back, one can't change the color filter that is used, or use different "filters" on different parts of the image.

Besides being a master darkroom printer, Alan is also a master with Photoshop.  It was interesting to watch him use the dodging and burning tools the same way he would in the darkroom.

[250swb]

@david911 the Adobe subscription plan hasn't changed the price for as long as I can remember. You only need to learn the bits you need, nobody learns everything about Photoshop or Lightroom, and as techniques come along that interest you learn those bits then. And @zeitz makes a very good point, to do B&W you have far more control over the output if you start with colour, and then convert it by using Silver Efex (and not by default a monochrome camera or converting colour to B&W in ACR).

Edited October 17, 2024 by 250swb