Anfänger-Frage: M11 Dynamic Range

[mpauliks]

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Im Internet ist zu lesen, dass die M11 einen Dynamik Umfang von bis zu 15 Blendenstufen hat, so z.B. bei DxO. Schaue ich mir aber die Messungen im Detail bei Dxo oder auch https://www.photonstophotos.net/ für die M11 an, dann bin ich leider zu blöde das nachzuvollziehen. Mach ich etwas falsch? Wo kann ich denn Messungen finden bitte, die das belegen und welches Chart muss ich mir dafür ansehen? Vielen Dank! Michael

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[hdmesa]

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/forum/358-leica-m11/

[mpauliks]

Vielen Dank. Ich hatte nach dem Thema auch gesucht zuvor, aber es gab keinen leicht nachvollziehbaren Link dazu. Ich bitte hier um Aufgreifen hierzu speziell. Der von Dir gepostete Link scheint bei mir wieder nur zu einer Flut von allgemeinen Threads zu führen (8 Seiten von Thread Titeln, wenn ich darauf klicke). Bitte darum, hier inhaltlich auf meine Frage einzugehen.

Edited October 8, 2024 by mpauliks

[LocalHero1953]

You have posted in the international section of the forum, where German speakers are welcome but the forum language is English.  Even though we can all use Google translate, you may get more replies in the German section of the forum.

[mpauliks]

Got it now Paul! Thank you very much! My question is: "On the Internet you can read that the M11 has a dynamic range of up to 15 f-stops, for example at DxO. But if I look at the measurements in detail at Dxo or https://www.photonstophotos.net/ for the M11, then unfortunately I'm too stupid to understand it. Am I doing something wrong? Where can I find measurements that prove this and which chart do I have to look at? Thank you! Michael“

[mpauliks]

Sorry please, for messing up German and International forum!

[hdmesa]

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9 minutes ago, mpauliks said:

Got it now Paul! Thank you very much! My question is: "On the Internet you can read that the M11 has a dynamic range of up to 15 f-stops, for example at DxO. But if I look at the measurements in detail at Dxo or https://www.photonstophotos.net/ for the M11, then unfortunately I'm too stupid to understand it. Am I doing something wrong? Where can I find measurements that prove this and which chart do I have to look at? Thank you! Michael“

It's complicated to the point of being subjective.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/7687479702/how-numbers-can-mislead-a-closer-look-at-dynamic-range-part-2

[mpauliks]

Yes, it obviously seems to be complicated. At least to me...lol.. Therefore I am asking.

Anyway I am specifically interested on M11 please. What is its dynamic range and where is it measured please. I see 14.8 at highlevel at DxO sensor ranking and a lot are claiming this too at Internet. But I have not seen or understood any detailed measurement incl. DxO themself proving this. DxO 14.8 at sensor rankings appear not to be covered by their own detailed measurements to me. Also at photon site I can not see it! Please enlight me...lol...

Anyway will check out your posted link! Thank you for that! However asking for a measuring chart for M11 showing the 14.8 DR please.

Nutshell: I do not trust in that 14.8 DR before seeing a measurement.

Edited October 8, 2024 by mpauliks

[mpauliks]

This is the detailied measurement at DxO. Click on Dynamic Range. I cannot see that claimed 15 F-Stops at lowest ISO: https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Leica/M11---Measurements

Edited October 8, 2024 by mpauliks

[mpauliks]

Does DxO have a typo and whole Internet world is doing copy&paste? Honestly, I do not understand.

Edited October 8, 2024 by mpauliks

[hdmesa]

DXO doesn’t publish their full methodology, we are just supposed to trust them.

I know the M11 dynamic range claims interest you, but they are the least impactful of all the M11 upgrades over the previous cameras. Since the M10-R, dynamic range has been amazing for any purpose except perhaps extremely low light where you might prefer the SL2-S or the a Monochrom.

[hdmesa]

Trust your eyes over charts and graphs:

 

[mpauliks]

Sure I do trust my eyes. Anyway this is about measurements here. I use Leica cams for decades now, because I love them. But here I am talking about claiming 15 F-Stops. Leica ist claiming this at their own page for M11 too. However, I learned to differentiate between marketing claims and facts incl. my loved Leicas. So please answer concrete. I would really appreciate this! Let´s stay to facts please. If you do not have facts, we can close this chat.

Yes, I had SL2-S before SL3. I loved it for low light and prefered it to SL2 for my stuff. SL3 is pretty fine too IMO. I recommend it when you are on SL2-S - but for other reasons like e.g. 26.1 MP with APS-C T-Lenes. But here it is about M11 measurements. And only this please. What I am really up to is M11M because of DR. 

Nutshell: A new mirrorless S could be interesting for me too in 2026 or so. But here I want to listen and learn about reading measurement charts please. My personal focus is low light, as you guessed correctly.

 

Edited October 9, 2024 by mpauliks

[mpauliks]

DxO publishes their detailed charts (see posted link above in this thread). So does Photons using the DxO software and measurement - in difference to DxO website myself still trusts in the DxO measurement software. I do not understand the mismatch between highlevel DxO sensor ranking and published DxO detailed measurement charts on M11. Also when looking on Photon´s site. Am I doing something wrong? Please teach me!

Edited October 9, 2024 by mpauliks

[mpauliks]

Let´s stop on this. The 14.8 DR for M11 are not real IMO. I conclude from your answers so far. I will wait for a Medium Format mirrorless and skip M11(M) for myself. Keeping SL3 and 246. @moderator please close chat. Thank you to community for your answers.

Edited October 9, 2024 by mpauliks

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, mpauliks said:

...The 14.8 DR for M11 are not real IMO...

And that's the point I think you wanted to troll about all along. Don't let the door hit you on the way out as they say.

[Photoworks]

11 hours ago, mpauliks said:

But here I want to listen and learn about reading measurement charts please. My personal focus is low light, as you guessed correctly.

you could be disappointed if you trying to get the max DR in low light/high ISO. 
then itthe maximum DR on the M11 is at 64 ISO and than it goes down from there, like any other camera

[mpauliks]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb hdmesa:

And that's the point I think you wanted to troll about all along. Don't let the door hit you on the way out as they say.

Is is trolling, if I provide detailed published charts? Or is it more about you doing influencer marketing here?

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[mpauliks]

vor 44 Minuten schrieb Photoworks:

you could be disappointed if you trying to get the max DR in low light/high ISO. 
then itthe maximum DR on the M11 is at 64 ISO and than it goes down from there, like any other camera

Sure at lowest ISO you get max. DR, but at higher ISO you still have advantages in DR EV too. It is pretty much a linear curve. So if you have advantages at lowest ISO by x EV you have advantages at higher ISO by ca. that x EV.

[SrMi]

15 hours ago, mpauliks said:

Got it now Paul! Thank you very much! My question is: "On the Internet you can read that the M11 has a dynamic range of up to 15 f-stops, for example at DxO. But if I look at the measurements in detail at Dxo or https://www.photonstophotos.net/ for the M11, then unfortunately I'm too stupid to understand it. Am I doing something wrong? Where can I find measurements that prove this and which chart do I have to look at? Thank you! Michael“

There is no standard way to measure DR. Therefore, the numbers are only comparable if they are measured in the same way. You cannot compare the manufacturer's claims with the DxO or P2P report. Also, DxO and P2P measure DR differently, and DxO has two different kinds of measurements (Print and Screen).

For DxO, you can look here (Click on Dynamic Range, then Print or Screen):

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Leica/M11---Measurements

For P2P, see here:

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M11