SL3 electronic shutter and banding

[kimvilar]

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Hi everyone,

I use my SL2-S a lot for concert photography including classical music. This means that I need to be absolutely quiet and use the electronic shutter. With a lot of LED lights around, I need to be very careful to avoid banding which often comes down to control the shutter speed manually and use it at 1/100 or slower. 

Does anyone have experience with the SL3 and how it behaves in the real world with the electronic shutter and venues with led lights? I know that on paper the SL3 has a slower sensor, but I'd like to hear the experiences of using the camera under such conditions. 

Thank you in advance!

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[pf4eva]

Apparently SL3 also has some weird issues with red channel

 

[Photoworks]

All the leicas have similar issues, like many other cameras.

Mostly caused by low-quality LED dimmers and lights, many concert halls save to much money on lights.

On a TV set with walls of screens, the banding can be visible even at 1/2 sec exposure.

On Film set I often use a blimp to reduce the sound of the mechanical shutter, to many captures have movement and can use an electronic shutter for rolling shutter issues.

You can make a sound blimp with a small pelican case and a drill. Or get a Camera Muzzle one, it will reduce noise.

 

[BlackDoc]

Using electronic shutter: no chance at all without banding- definitely NOT better than SL2 SL-1 (I do have all of them), but to me the SL-3 is by far better with ISO and in total the best Leica "live" camera.

 

And I don´t care about the red lights

PM me if you want more information....

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[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, BlackDoc said:

Using electronic shutter: no chance at all without banding- definitely NOT better than SL2 SL-1 (I do have all of them), but to me the SL-3 is by far better with ISO and in total the best Leica "live" camera.

 

And I don´t care about the red lights

PM me if you want more information....

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Are these mechanical or electronic shutter?

[BlackDoc]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb LocalHero1953:

Are these mechanical or electronic shutter?

Mechanical shutter. 
I deleted almost all pics with the banding…. But there might be some on another HD….. 

[kimvilar]

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13 hours ago, Photoworks said:

All the leicas have similar issues, like many other cameras.

Mostly caused by low-quality LED dimmers and lights, many concert halls save to much money on lights.

On a TV set with walls of screens, the banding can be visible even at 1/2 sec exposure.

On Film set I often use a blimp to reduce the sound of the mechanical shutter, to many captures have movement and can use an electronic shutter for rolling shutter issues.

You can make a sound blimp with a small pelican case and a drill. Or get a Camera Muzzle one, it will reduce noise.

 

Good point about a camera muzzle, but unfortunately is very impractical for me to move around with it, change settings quickly or even lenses quickly... 

 

10 hours ago, BlackDoc said:

Using electronic shutter: no chance at all without banding- definitely NOT better than SL2 SL-1 (I do have all of them), but to me the SL-3 is by far better with ISO and in total the best Leica "live" camera.

 

And I don´t care about the red lights

PM me if you want more information....

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Great shots! 

You have the SL2 / SL-1? Have you had the chance to compare the banding between SL3 and SL2-S?

Have you applied any noise reduction to the images you posted? How comfortable are you with high iso and the SL3? I sometimes go up to 12500 with the SL2-S for live events. I'm not sure the SL3 can keep up with the great low light performance of the 2S.

[BlackDoc]

Thanks:

With the SL3 I am using less noise reduction (LR does well with it...) and these pics above are without noise reduction at max ISO 4000 in this setting...

vor 18 Minuten schrieb kimvilar:

You have the SL2 / SL-1? Have you had the chance to compare the banding between SL3 and SL2-S?

Yes SL I/II/III:
SL I/II are very similar (worse) with higher ISO (NOT high iso)...
- SL-I good printable results without noise reduction max 1600 
- SL-II good printable results without noise reduction max 3200

-> SL3 no Limits up to ISO 12500 and to me no big difference between Panasonic S5-II (which I own too, sensor very similar to SL-II S) 
And AFC is much better than AFS in dark scenes.... 

 

 

But once again: F*ck off SL-3 with banding and electronic shutter 

 

 

 

 

EXAMPLES (no noise reduction) SL3 Iso 12500 (Forum compression is a problem, in original the pics are better)

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EXAMPLES SL3 Iso 25000 

 

EXAMPLES (no noise reduction) SL3 Iso 10000

[jaapv]

With adequate processing (i.e. DXO PureRaw or Topaz PhotoAI DeNoiseAI you can easily gain two or three stops of noise performance without the drawbacks of older noise reduction techniques. (Obviously on the SL3 as well). It can even help combating banding. The forum does not compress except for the thumbnails   If you click on an image you will get the resolution you posted up to 2480 pixels allowed. 

[BlackDoc]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

With adequate processing (i.e. DXO PureRaw or Topaz PhotoAI DeNoiseAI you can easily gain two or three stops of noise performance without the drawbacks of older noise reduction techniques. (Obviously on the SL3 as well). It can even help combating banding. The forum does not compress except for the thumbnails   If you click on an image you will get the resolution you posted up to 2480 pixels allowed. 

Thanks Jaap for the correction, actually the problem is the downsizing (export) with LR and with this I get the artifacts- but to MY point of view you get the right information with this pics by clicking on them. 

 

[jaapv]

I don’t know what goes on in the background when exporting from LR. But indeed downsizing does camouflage things like noise. The best thing to do is to add a 2480 pixel crop of a relevant are. 

[LocalHero1953]

This thread has diverted into noise, but the original question was about banding with the electronic shutter. From @BlackDoc's comments the SL3 is worse than the SL2-S.

Any examples from both cameras? 

[kimvilar]

6 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

This thread has diverted into noise, but the original question was about banding with the electronic shutter. From @BlackDoc's comments the SL3 is worse than the SL2-S.

Any examples from both cameras? 

I can share examples of SL2-S. You can see the banding in the photos below (third photo has some exaggerated edits to show the banding)

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24mm 1/160 f3.2

 

90mm 1/125 f4 

280mm 1/160 f4

[LocalHero1953]

Thank you!
Would it be correct to interpret that as a square wave in the lighting? I haven't seen such narrow lines before. With the SL2-S I've only seen banding with softer transitions.

Looking forward to a banding-free Leica sometime in the (not too distant?) future.

 

Edited September 21, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[BlackDoc]

I did find  a pic I didn´t delete ...... SL 3 electronic shutter, ISO 1600 1/250 Sec Lumix 70-200 @80 mm f 4.5

NO post processing

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[Photoworks]

5 hours ago, kimvilar said:

I can share examples of SL2-S. You can see the banding in the photos below (third photo has some exaggerated edits to show the banding)

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24mm 1/160 f3.2

 

90mm 1/125 f4 

 

280mm 1/160 f4

you would have to try to shoot below 1/60 , I know it is difficult.

I would set up a button to switch to mechanical for the applause.

Or use a sony a9.

[kimvilar]

19 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Thank you!
Would it be correct to interpret that as a square wave in the lighting? I haven't seen such narrow lines before. With the SL2-S I've only seen banding with softer transitions.

Looking forward to a banding-free Leica sometime in the (not too distant?) future.

 

You are probably right but I cannot comment on the the technical aspect of the lightning in this particular case.

 

18 hours ago, BlackDoc said:

I did find  a pic I didn´t delete ...... SL 3 electronic shutter, ISO 1600 1/250 Sec Lumix 70-200 @80 mm f 4.5

NO post processing

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Thanks for sharing this. 

I know that it depends on the distance of the lights and the type of light arrangement, but considering that this is at 1/250, this is not too terrible.

 

13 hours ago, Photoworks said:

you would have to try to shoot below 1/60 , I know it is difficult.

I would set up a button to switch to mechanical for the applause.

Or use a sony a9.

Sometimes below 1/60 is not an option at concerts unless you want to show some motion, in that case, 'banding' it's no problem at all. But in order to 'freeze' motion, 1/60 or below is only an option if you have very slow movements, specially if you use longer lenses.

I have an FN button assigned to switch the shutter type, this is indeed useful. Sometimes action moves fast and I'm less focused on camera settings and more on what's going around me and I forget it's there. But of course it's great that I can assign a button to switch to mechanical shutter.

I really want to stick to Leica for all my professional work. It has some limitations but so far I can find ways around it. Sometimes the 'banding' issue makes me move away from the minimalistic way of taking photos that I like so much and settings do get on my way by having to find all these tricks to avoid it etc... I would love to simply forget about 'banding' and concentrate on the action happening around me.

 

[pf4eva]

On 9/22/2024 at 3:26 PM, kimvilar said:

You are probably right but I cannot comment on the the technical aspect of the lightning in this particular case.

 

Thanks for sharing this. 

I know that it depends on the distance of the lights and the type of light arrangement, but considering that this is at 1/250, this is not too terrible.

 

Sometimes below 1/60 is not an option at concerts unless you want to show some motion, in that case, 'banding' it's no problem at all. But in order to 'freeze' motion, 1/60 or below is only an option if you have very slow movements, specially if you use longer lenses.

I have an FN button assigned to switch the shutter type, this is indeed useful. Sometimes action moves fast and I'm less focused on camera settings and more on what's going around me and I forget it's there. But of course it's great that I can assign a button to switch to mechanical shutter.

I really want to stick to Leica for all my professional work. It has some limitations but so far I can find ways around it. Sometimes the 'banding' issue makes me move away from the minimalistic way of taking photos that I like so much and settings do get on my way by having to find all these tricks to avoid it etc... I would love to simply forget about 'banding' and concentrate on the action happening around me.

 

Leica for professional work? Is it a joke?

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[BernardC]

On 9/21/2024 at 3:19 PM, BlackDoc said:

I did find  a pic I didn´t delete ...... SL 3 electronic shutter, ISO 1600 1/250 Sec Lumix 70-200 @80 mm f 4.5

Even a global shutter wouldn't fix that problem entirely. You would still get inconsistent exposures.

The rule of thumb is that you should pick a shutter speed that is related to your local grid's frequency. In 50hz countries, that would be 1/25, 1/50, or 1/100 (AC power peaks twice per cycle, so you get one peak every 1/100 of a second). That's not 100% safe, by the way, because lights could be on generators at a different frequency (especially large touring shows), and they could use switch-mode power supplies that operate at different frequencies. Different lights could be powered by different generators that aren't in sync.

[BlackDoc]

vor 1 Minute schrieb BernardC:

Even a global shutter wouldn't fix that problem entirely. You would still get inconsistent exposures.

The rule of thumb is that you should pick a shutter speed that is related to your local grid's frequency. In 50hz countries, that would be 1/25, 1/50, or 1/100 (AC power peaks twice per cycle, so you get one peak every 1/100 of a second). That's not 100% safe, by the way, because lights could be on generators at a different frequency (especially large touring shows), and they could use switch-mode power supplies that operate at different frequencies. Different lights could be powered by different generators that aren't in sync.

That is the way  i am testing when i do need the silent shutter..