Leica M11-D: The camera without a display enters the next round

[pgk]

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5 hours ago, pippy said:

What makes any camera a 'functional and effective photographic tool' for one person doesn't neccessarily work the same way for another.

I've been in the situation of needing a new SD card, fortunately being able to get hold of one, but then having to format it so that it worked in the camera. A camera unable to format a card is absolutely not as functional as one which can because there is no guarantee that a card is usable in such a situation. As I said, I can see the appeal but functionality really has been lost. Of course not everyone will think that they might end up in such a situation, but having done so I see the need to format a card perhaps a little more distinctly.

I've watched Leica take an odd route forward. It seems to work for them but for me their current cameras no longer appear to fulfil the role that I use older models for. None of their current line up holds any interest for me. I hope this changes because if not I may have to look at other equipment in the future and I've been using Ms for 45 years so far.

[pippy]

2 minutes ago, pgk said:

I've been in the situation of needing a new SD card, fortunately being able to get hold of one, but then having to format it so that it worked in the camera...

I've watched Leica take an odd route forward......their current cameras no longer appear to fulfil the role that I use older models for. None of their current line up holds any interest for me. I hope this changes because if not I may have to look at other equipment in the future and I've been using Ms for 45 years so far.

Were the same situation happen to me things would be perfectly fine as the M-D Typ-262 will automatically format a newly installed card (and create a DCIM folder etc) as soon as the camera is switched on...

I'm with you in that for what I want in an M Leica has gone in a direction which has lost much of its attraction. When the M-D dies I'm not sure how it might be be replaced...

In comparison to yourself I'm an 'M' neophyte; I've only been using Leica M since 1980 (so just the 44 years!) but, pleading mitigating circumstances, I had acquired a 'Barnack' some five years before that time just in case those years count for anything?......😸......

For fits'n'giggles here's a snap of that first 'Camera Without a Display' I ever bought for myself; a IIIa (actually a 'Standardised' conversion of a 1930 Leica 1 Model A) still with its original 11 o'clock 'Bell-Push' 50mm f3.5 Elmar;

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Oddly enough using the M-D offers a remarkably similar (but more sophisticated) experience to using this thing. I wish I still had it. Unlike my current 1930 Leica 1 this one even has strap lugs!......😸......

Philip.

[NigelG]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

I've been in the situation of needing a new SD card, fortunately being able to get hold of one, but then having to format it so that it worked in the camera. A camera unable to format a card is absolutely not as functional as one which can because there is no guarantee that a card is usable in such a situation

Sorry - I’ve never bought a card I couldn’t just insert into a camera and shoot in the last 10 years.

Did you get one specifically formatted for another kind of use or was it previously used in a different sort of device?

(Can’t format in my M 60…but then again it doesn’t have internal memory)

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2024 by NigelG

[pippy]

1 hour ago, NigelG said:

...Can’t format in my M 60…but then again it doesn’t have internal memory...

Are you quite sure that the M 60 wouldn't automatically format a new card?

I've just had a read-through the instruction book for the M 60 and the section pertaining to batteries and memory cards is practically the same as that for the M-D so  I rather suspect that it would work in much the same way as for the later camera.

For a different thread - which was discussing some formatting problems with the M11-D - I checked, yesterday, what happens when a new card is inserted into the M-D and, as mentioned in post #124, the card is automatically formatted when the camera is switched on.

The card can't be overwritten / re-formatted in-camera but that has never once been an issue for me when using any of the five Digi-M bodies I've owned.

Philip.

[Winedemonium]

I like the look of the M11-D. I thought I wouldn't like the loss of the ISO 'rewind' knob, but it looks fine - maybe even better (?). And the rear ISO dial looks great. 

Also pleased that - for now - my M10R BP seems indeed like the end of the black paint digital line, though in Leica world, never say never.

I loved this concept, bought and used the M60 when that came out. The lens weight annoyed me, but ultimately it was the lack of lugs (so no after market strap option, except screwed horribly into the bottom), made worse by the fact the included leather half case and integrated strap was pretty bad. So, nice idea, poorly executed 'design'. (Other design house muck arounds have aged better than the M60 in part for this I think).

I also then had the M-D typ 262. Much more a user camera, but as a result, really made me realise that sometimes I really want live view. That was an odd realisation for me because I don't miss live view when using a film camera, and, as an aside to this, I don't miss colour when using my M10 Monochrom (nor previous Monochroms). 

I think @jonoslack assessed it right discussing the aesthetic choices between the M10-D and M11-D ('advance' lever). Although I prefer the look of the M10 to the M11, for some reason I actually prefer the look of the M11-D to the M10-D. Perhaps it looks a more serious fit to its purpose in my eyes, even though I know some users love the M10-D's lever as a thumb rest (and not just a charming eccentricity). I get that. 

But perhaps above all for me, the upgrades in live view shooting (i.e. in this case better EVF performance), and better connectivity, make - for me anyway - the platform upgrades from M10 to M11 more meaningful in the -D model. 

I do understand that the idea of the M11-D is to shoot through the viewfinder 95-100% of the time for that experience. I love the experience of shooting my Leica M film cameras. Perhaps though the extra usability of the M11-D over the M10-D, M-D typ 262, and M60, make the M11-D tempting for me. I didn't expect that.

I'd love to hear from those of you who buy one - epsecially if you have used the previous D cameras. I will be looking out for the long term reviews. 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2024 by Winedemonium
typo

[IkarusJohn]

10 hours ago, pgk said:

… they sacrifice functionality and are not as effective photographic tools as they could be as a result.

I agree, Paul; depending on how you define functionality.  After the M60, I was keen to have the ability to use an EVF when I needed it, and it change settings (such as they were) and release the shutter remotely using WiFi.  I’ve actually not used them much, preferring the simplicity of the M10-D on its own.

In regard to exposure, I’m pretty used to the centre-weighted meter off the shutter, and have the camera set to -2/3 EV, and I’ve never had the need to borrow an SD card from another photographer (my recollection aligns with Pippy’s - the camera automatically formats when you put a new card in the camera).  Any spare SD card I carry has already been formatted with SD Formatter after downloading.  

I’m sure there are other functions on your digital cameras which you are used to and rely on which are not available with the D series cameras (some have video).  My SL and X2D are fundamentally very different from any M series camera.  That’s not really the point.  The D camera’s restricted functionality is the entire point.  I doubt an M11-D would really be feasible for a commercial shoot or a paid wedding assignment - it would be a hell of a gamble.  But that doesn’t make them ineffective photographic tools.

[scott kirkpatrick]

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Well, I finally had time to fire up my new M11-D.  The essential step is to connect through Fotos.  And you need an up-to-date copy, that knows about an M11-D.  Goose the 11-D's second input control (the thumbwheel at right) for 12 continuous seconds, it learns the time of day and date, all settings are exposed and can be set.  Subsequent transfers between the camera and tablet are almost instantaneous, at least as compared with the M10-D, and don't require counting out 12 seconds.  Haven't tried Android Fotos on my phone, but the tablet Fotos works as advertised.  It's grey here, so pictures tomorrow.

***Android Fotos also works on the M11-D..

Edited September 20, 2024 by scott kirkpatrick

[fenykepesz]

vor einer Stunde schrieb scott kirkpatrick:

And you need an up-to-date copy, that knows about an M11-D. 

that's very true, @scott kirkpatrick - Android v9 on my special Fxtec phone can't be upgraded, and does NOT work with the newest FOTOS for the m11d !  hence i may need to use my son's iphone for such exercises...

Edited September 20, 2024 by fenykepesz

[tomasis7]

maybe not relevant but how many film rolls i can buy for 9350eur?

[Smudgerer]

36 minutes ago, tomasis7 said:

maybe not relevant but how many film rolls i can buy for 9350eur?

Enough.......

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, tomasis7 said:

maybe not relevant but how many film rolls i can buy for 9350eur?

Very very roughly, cost of roll of film, development and scanning maybe £40 start to finish? 
 

That’s 200 rolls of film bought and onto the computer.
 

Even then it assumes that the camera has no residual value at the end of the calculation period which of course it does, in this case possibly 80-90% or more. 

You may argue you can do it yourself but that also costs kit and considerable time so the direct and opportunity cost. 

Edited September 24, 2024 by Derbyshire Man

[tomasis7]

1 hour ago, Derbyshire Man said:

Very very roughly, cost of roll of film, development and scanning maybe £40 start to finish? 
 

That’s 200 rolls of film bought and onto the computer.
 

Even then it assumes that the camera has no residual value at the end of the calculation period which of course it does, in this case possibly 80-90% or more. 

You may argue you can do it yourself but that also costs kit and considerable time so the direct and opportunity cost. 

Fomapan 400 is not a great film but about 3600 rolls (18rolls per 30,5m for each 36 exposure). Kodak DD-X is prob hard to acquire.

M11D is my dream digital camera but I already have analog photo equipment. I still like the aesthetics of analog

 

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Edited September 24, 2024 by tomasis7

[scott kirkpatrick]

Well, there are levels of involvement in film and chemical photography.  I learned to develop film for a box Brownie somewhere in middle school, and contact printed a few shots, lost now.  In college and most of grad school my outlets were writing and editing on a newspaper, and stage tech work. I let someone else handle the pictures needed, but I got back into the darkroom when I had to leave the well-equipped university world and didn't think I would have the time to hang out in multiple theater productions.  Had an M2, a Rollei, and some Nikon Fs and my own tiny darkroom while doing a postdoc in Chicago just a bit after Danny Lyon had moved on to bigger things and while the craziest of Mayor Daley's police activity was tempering down.  We moved to northern Westchester County NY, in the '70s to '90s, where we could dedicate a spare bedroom as a dry darkroom, and used all these things, but gave all but the film tanks to the San Francisco Parks department one summer when we moved to Israel with two very small kids (now grown). Replaced the rest of the darkroom with a scanner.  Both kids had the chance to learn analog photography with the M2 at summer courses (no meter!!), but we're all digital now.  

Edited September 25, 2024 by scott kirkpatrick

[Derbyshire Man]

Yep, I started at home with my dad aged about 8. I'm not 8 any more! The whole thing of buying bulk film, loading canisters, developing, darkrooms, hoovers up absolutely ages of time. I'd often get a single print out of a 4 or 5 hour session once I'd been through contact print, then some prints, then working out the dodging and burning for the best candidates etc. All of that can be regarded as fun or a huge opportunity cost in terms of life and money. There are multiple reasons why plenty of photographers over the years have concentrated on the photography and got others to do the printing. There's not a correct answer but a personal choice.

Anyway, steering back on topic, there remains a huge element of the M11-D being as close to a film camera as you can get without actually being film, with the limitations and benefits that brings. Whether that is a positive for one as a photographer and individual is a different question.

[tomasis7]

I started with film 25 years ago when films were on decline and the digital photography was being introduced. I remember Nikon D1 year 1999 on the news. The school had a digital camera in budget level with floppy disk (Mavica MVC-FD5).

I think the younger generation will start get fascinated with films at some point. Kind of vinyl resurgence but more as an art form. Oil painting will never die, for example.

I hope M11D and earlier cameras (Mx-D) will bring the joy of user except financing the buy, lol.

Indeed, Mx-D brings experience closest to analog M cameras.

Edited September 25, 2024 by tomasis7

[maxpower]

Got my M11-D today, put some Ilford Delta 400 in it (it was a bit tricky to do) and ready to go! Joking aside, I'm excited! 

And because CaptureOne doesn't support it yet I'll have to wait a bit longer to get my "film" developed. 

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(shot with iPhone)

[Guest]

3 hours ago, maxpower said:

Got my M11-D today, put some Ilford Delta 400 in it (it was a bit tricky to do) and ready to go! Joking aside, I'm excited! 

And because CaptureOne doesn't support it yet I'll have to wait a bit longer to get my "film" developed. 

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Maybe just select the M11-P manually in C1 "Style"->"ICC Profile" until it's supported. I imagine it will be the same?

[maxpower]

1 hour ago, Corius said:

Maybe just select the M11-P manually in C1 "Style"->"ICC Profile" until it's supported. I imagine it will be the same?

Unfortunately not, it looks bad even. I'm not sure how come because the sensor is the same, maybe CaptureOne put something in there to ensure it only works for the specific camera and try to get me to upgrade to the newest version instead of cheat like that. But we already have a different forum to complain about CaptureOne luckily 

Edit added example of CaptureOne regular M11 profile not working for the M11-D:

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DNG Neutral (default when it doesn't recognise)

Selected the M11 profile

All variants look bad in different ways and are just not good starting points to continue the edit with, so I'll wait for their update before even trying.

Edited September 25, 2024 by maxpower

[scott kirkpatrick]

Well, you are more persnickety than me.  I hadn't noticed that Capture One doesn't recognize the M11-D since it does manage to get close enough for me to start and will probably improve in little time.  How does Adobe do with the M11-D?

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[maxpower]

12 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Well, you are more persnickety than me.  I hadn't noticed that Capture One doesn't recognize the M11-D since it does manage to get close enough for me to start and will probably improve in little time.  How does Adobe do with the M11-D?

I might be, but that's also because I'm still learning and like to play around a bit more I think. For me it was mostly that the few presets I made didn't behave as normal with the CaptureOne DNG Neutral profile it assigned, compared to my M11-P workflow, and then manually selecting M11 did not fix that. There's actually something weird with how C1 handles this internally, but that's too technical to get into here. Luckily they just released an update today that includes support for the M11-D and the new Q3 43 - it didn't automatically update all the photos I already had in my session unfortunately, but luckily it was just a test session so I made a new one and then it detected the correct camera model and everything worked as I'm used to again! I'm not sure about Adobe but I believe they are generally pretty up to date?