Leica M11-D Review by Jonathan Slack

[evikne]

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11 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

sure if you shoot DNG you can change it afterwards - but if you shoot 500 pictures that’s quite a task!

Maybe I don’t quite understand, but whether it's 5 or 500, it's all the same. If you want them all to get the same WB, it's done with one click in LR.

[jonoslack]

11 minutes ago, evikne said:

Maybe I don’t quite understand, but whether it's 5 or 500, it's all the same. If you want them all to get the same WB, it's done with one click in LR.

Yes, and if you’ve just shot a wedding with 1500 shots with AWB, but it should have been at 5600K then you have to click on WB and change it on every single shot. . . . . . . And it isn’t one click - it’s choose WB, choose a value, confirm. . . . . And it’s stupid, there is no such thing as a correct white balance in normal lighting (it’s always going to be an average or an assessment). 

I want the colour to be consistent over a shoot - not waving about between one white balance and another - what’s more I want to really understand what the colour is for a particular camera - and shooting with a fixed white balance (daylight in daylight) does that - it’s like shooting with a particular film stock - you get to really understand what it’s doing. The beauty of digital is you can change it . . . But I want to start with something consistent and ‘knowable’ not some kind of sliding Kelvin scale. 

Of course I understand that I could highlight the whole shoot and change the white balance for everything - but then I don’t see it during the shoot, my camera was set on AWB (by mistake) today whilst shooting in the woods and I couldn’t understand why the lovely morning light was looking blue!

Sorry - I feel really really strongly about this!

Edited September 14, 2024 by jonoslack

[Lev55]

Thank you jonoslack for your great review and the photos! My Question is did the photos had with the AWB a magenta cast? When i dont change the White Balance with a Greycard i have that problem.

Thank you very much.

[jonoslack]

1 minute ago, Lev55 said:

Thank you jonoslack for your great review and the photos! My Question is did the photos had with the AWB a magenta cast? When i dont change the White Balance with a Greycard i have that problem.

Thank you very much.

Hi There

Well, the magenta cast is a can of worms indeed, the simple answer is that

1. I don’t shoot with AWB (because I think it’s a bad decision) - almost all of these are shot in daylight WB

2. I haven’t corrected for any cast in the images, so you can judge for yourself

best

[evikne]

…

Edited September 14, 2024 by evikne

[IkarusJohn]

8 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

IMO, a true 'D' model would come set up already and one would never have to use a phone, Visoflex or anything that wasn't available to the M6. Just have it set to DNG, single capture motor drive speed, and AWB, and good to go

That’s how my M10-D is set up.

[hdmesa]

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5 hours ago, jonoslack said:

...Of course I understand that I could highlight the whole shoot and change the white balance for everything - but then I don’t see it during the shoot...

I've always wished for a fixed white balance option that was adjustable on the fly:

• Fixed initial white balance temperature (default is Daylight, but user can set their own default value)
• Fixed initial tint (default is Daylight, but user can set their own default value)
• Function button pressed and held + thumb wheel spin = moves the white balance temperature relative to the initial setting or last setting adjusted to (left = cooler, right = warmer like the sliders in LRC/C1)
• Same function button pressed twice and held + thumb wheel changes the tint in the same manner (I would use this much less often)
• Both temperature and tint would be able to be set to auto separately

I hate shooting 50 shots of the same scene and getting 30 different white balance values when set to auto. But also a fixed white balance set to any given preset is never quite right either. I'd love to be able to adjust the white balance on the fly white watching the image in the EVF/LCD before I start shooting a scene.

Of course the above doesn't apply to the M11-D unless using the Visoflex 2.

Edited September 15, 2024 by hdmesa

[graphlex]

8 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Yes, and if you’ve just shot a wedding with 1500 shots with AWB, but it should have been at 5600K then you have to click on WB and change it on every single shot. . . . . . . And it isn’t one click - it’s choose WB, choose a value, confirm. . . . . And it’s stupid, there is no such thing as a correct white balance in normal lighting (it’s always going to be an average or an assessment). 

I want the colour to be consistent over a shoot - not waving about between one white balance and another - what’s more I want to really understand what the colour is for a particular camera - and shooting with a fixed white balance (daylight in daylight) does that - it’s like shooting with a particular film stock - you get to really understand what it’s doing. The beauty of digital is you can change it . . . But I want to start with something consistent and ‘knowable’ not some kind of sliding Kelvin scale. 

Of course I understand that I could highlight the whole shoot and change the white balance for everything - but then I don’t see it during the shoot, my camera was set on AWB (by mistake) today whilst shooting in the woods and I couldn’t understand why the lovely morning light was looking blue!

Sorry - I feel really really strongly about this!

Then probably a D camera is not the tool for a wedding  

[evikne]

I don't want to turn this into a WB discussion, but here's what I do during smaller or larger photo shoots (I've shot at weddings too).

I take all photos with AWB. When I finish shooting one location, I take a reference shot through an ExpoDisc. Then I go to the next location and take another reference shot, and so on. 

Back at the computer, I copy the WB settings from the first reference shot to all the previous shots, the next reference shot to all the shots between them, and so on. There may be two, five or more different WB settings during a shoot, but it's all done very quickly in LR. It's usually the first thing I do after an import.

If I sometimes forget to take a WB reference shot, I feel quite helpless and I often end up converting some images to black and white. 

[ramarren]

16 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

IMO, a true 'D' model would come set up already and one would never have to use a phone, Visoflex or anything that wasn't available to the M6. Just have it set to DNG, single capture motor drive speed, and AWB, and good to go. Anything else can be done in post, just like the 'old days.' ...

That was essentially the way it was with the M-D 262, and I never missed having all the settings options at all. The only thing I wished it had had was the ability to take the Visoflex to enable use with long lenses and macro. 

[Viv]

10 hours ago, jonoslack said:

AWB is an aberration from the devil! More seriously I want control of my colour and I don’t want the camera deciding it - no problem with it deciding on the ISO or shutter speed (within reasonable parameters) but I DON’T WANT AUTO WHITE BALANCE! And I wouldn’t touch a camera which forced it - sure if you shoot DNG you can change it afterwards - but if you shoot 500 pictures that’s quite a task!

best

Jono

I fully agree. Surely they could have put WB control on a thumbwheel?

The reason I would not buy this camera.

[Viv]

9 hours ago, evikne said:

Maybe I don’t quite understand, but whether it's 5 or 500, it's all the same. If you want them all to get the same WB, it's done with one click in LR.

The same WB on all shots? Never!

[SiggiGun]

Am 13.9.2024 um 22:36 schrieb jonoslack:

That’s an interesting point about longevity (which I hadn’t thought aboout) - There was some talk about using the visoflex to address the M11 menu system (using the thumbwheel for select and confirm) in the end I didn’t think it was terribly important, but in the light of your comments I think it is important . . . The camera ought to be able to be operated without a phone!

Good thinking

best

Jono

Agreed. 

I also think that parameterisation via EVF2 makes sense. Even if you always have a mobile phone in your pocket, but even there the battery can run out at a crucial moment. 

[SiggiGun]

Am 13.9.2024 um 22:36 schrieb jonoslack:

That’s an interesting point about longevity (which I hadn’t thought aboout) - There was some talk about using the visoflex to address the M11 menu system (using the thumbwheel for select and confirm) in the end I didn’t think it was terribly important, but in the light of your comments I think it is important . . . The camera ought to be able to be operated without a phone!

Good thinking

best

Jono

I also think that parameterisation via EVF2 makes sense. Even if you always have a mobile phone in your pocket, but even there the battery can run out at a crucial moment. 

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, graphlex said:

Then probably a D camera is not the tool for a wedding  

As it is you can easily set the WB, and it doesn’t have to be AWB so as far as that’s concerned the M11D would be fine!

[Smudgerer]

Ok, I was told yesterday by one of the dealers I work with that there's a M11-D soon available with my name on it if I wish to pull the trigger on it......h'mmm??? The cost of the camera is covered by a credit with the store and the fact that I would let one of my M10's go if I took the plunge so that's not so much of an issue, so what to do? Two days to decide, tick tock tick tock.......

Here are my hesitations:

The M11 series has had a troubled firmware life so far, how much of that could still be lurking within the M11-D?

The "D" series of M's are by far my favourite digital M cameras, I like their simplicity and lack of distraction, however the M11-D is more complicated than the now departed M10-D that I had from new which suffered a long history of electronic glitches and spent almost half it's life back at Wetzlar being sorted in one way or another, ( ie; three main board transplants plus other stuff ), I wouldn't want to repeat that, so yes I would have some nervousness as to the M11-D's reliability in that respect, Leica's firmware / electronics history that is.

I agree with Jono regarding the WB issues, that should be able to be on-camera set, not by using a Foto's setup that would require having an iPhone or iPad to hand which isn't easy for me as it happens. The same applies to changing the sensor resolution which I guess has to be done in  the same manner, through Fotos (?)..........And yes, being able to access the camera's menu via a Visoflex II would be a great really meaningful firmware upgrade, but no matter who or how many ask for that facility I wouldn't hold my breath on that being made a possibility.

So I wonder if the M11-D would suffer from the same developmental abandonment that was the case with the M10-D, in other words, none. Despite that I thought that there were some things that could have been added or functionally improved by firmware development to the M10-D after it's launch Leica did absolutely nothing for it, no firmware or extra abilities added at all.........So yes, I wonder if that would be the case with the M11-D too, launched, functions "ok", then Leica moves on? Other camera manufacturers update their cameras with extra features and abilities quite often, not so much of the same from Wetzlar at least with the M's I am afraid.

All said though I do miss my departed M10-D, so the M11-D does have quite a gravitational pull.......and although I'm yet to see it in hand just the images of it do have great appeal, it's a beautiful beast dammit.....

Edited September 15, 2024 by Smudgerer
grammar

[Smudgerer]

4 hours ago, graphlex said:

Then probably a D camera is not the tool for a wedding  

Dead right.........Never "done" a wedding, never been asked and anyway I would be the worst possible choice to have been made for that day other than perhaps inviting old lovers, ex in-laws and all their dogs to attend too............. But that and similar events normally require a lot of images to be made, and made quickly, shoot a lot, many different locations, indoors and out, then sort it out in post, so Jono does have a valid point regarding WB setting for sure...........But then again a Leica M, a "D" of any version would be a bad choice too I think, better to cover such a happening with a couple of DSLR / Mirrorless cameras with two fast zooms, wide and long, but then what do I know?

Edited September 15, 2024 by Smudgerer

[Alberti]

On 9/14/2024 at 7:20 AM, elmars said:

During the beta phase, we discussed whether the iPhone dependency was a good thing. Even back then, I argued that it should be possible to control the camera completely without an iPhone and app, because there are probably many people who are interested in a displayless camera who also want to do without using the app. Unfortunately, Leica did not hear this.

Just By Chance I got an iPhone SE last week (where we were going there was no wifi). But before that I was a happy user of old Nokia and iPhone5. A luddite? Yes. With purpose (though I managed mobile release and data product development . . ).

Interdependencies are very very bad. I really was looking at this camera with some favorite eye. Even if they gave the phone with it, I would be put off. Like said, the time to oblivion of phones is some 5 years. The camera will [must, hopefully] last >15 years. One is not going to keep a phone for the camera; and having two is crazy.

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, Smudgerer said:

Dead right.........Never "done" a wedding, never been asked and anyway I would be the worst possible choice to have been made for that day other than perhaps inviting old lovers, ex in-laws and all their dogs to attend too............. But that and similar events normally require a lot of images to be made, and made quickly, shoot a lot, many different locations, indoors and out, then sort it out in post, so Jono does have a valid point regarding WB setting for sure...........But then again a Leica M, a "D" of any version would be a bad choice too I think, better to cover such a happening with a couple of DSLR / Mirrorless cameras with two fast zooms, wide and long, but then what do I know?

I’ve done a few. Canon DSLR with zooms for formal, primes for speeches. Fuji’s for moving fast/undercover. I would use a M for the reportage between/after the formal shots but in my experience shooting weddings on film was pretty stressful so recreating that using digital with no screen wouldn’t be at the top of my list! For street, informal portraiture, environmental I’d give it a go but many subjects actually like to see the shots and that in itself often builds rapport. Can of course be achieved using background transfer to iPad which is quite an interesting thing to explore. The abilities of fotos in this regard are now excellent. 
 

my summary position is that if I had the cash I’d probably go for it, but not for weddings!

As for white balance. I don’t know what you’re taking about. Never had a problem with my M11M. 

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[Smudgerer]

34 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

As for white balance. I don’t know what you’re taking about. Never had a problem with my M11M. 

Hello, White Balance re: the M11? I don't know either as I do not have a M11 series camera, I was just agreeing with Jono that being able to adjust that on  11D with a camera setting rather than having to open up Fotos on something would be my preferred way............and actually to be able to adjust everything without using an App would be even better by far, but that horse has bolted I think.

 

PS. Just got the M11M joke........!

Edited September 15, 2024 by Smudgerer