28mm summilux second hand vs Norton 28mm 1.5

[Derbyshire Man]

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As per the title. Will mostly be used wide open for environmental portraiture. I’m not hung up on extreme sharpness but do like to have the subject off centre.

I suspect the answer is buy both at once and see which I prefer!

while the second hand summilux is a reasonable price my guess is I’d still lose more if I resell the summilux than the nokton as a function of the lenses value. 

Imaging is the major concern however. One thing I didn’t like with a previous CV 35 1.2 mk2 was focus shift which led me spending the money to get the 35mm summilux FLE. 
 

Edited September 5, 2024 by Derbyshire Man

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[hmzimelka]

Have you read Fred's review at www.fredmiranda.com? Personally I'd be leaning Nokton. From what I've read, Fred actually sold his Lux and kept the Nokton.

Infinity comparison:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1842505/0#infinity2

Rendering comparison:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1842505/1#rend

Edited September 5, 2024 by hmzimelka

[Derbyshire Man]

Thanks very much, I did see that and I’m swung by it but he doesn’t really talk about the ability to focus recompose and have the subject offset from centre. I just wonder whether the FLE is going to make a difference here. 
 

having said that I’d feel a bit more comfortable with the cheaper and lighter lens, particular anywhere slightly less than salubrious. 

[wizard]

vor 35 Minuten schrieb Derbyshire Man:

As per the title.

I didn't know Norton is now producing lenses, too. Always thought there were more into motorcycles ... 😁.

[Derbyshire Man]

37 minutes ago, wizard said:

I didn't know Norton is now producing lenses, too. Always thought there were more into motorcycles ... 😁.

Just saw that, it's a Triumph of autocorrect.

[hdmesa]

Both are a little soft off center at headshot distance wide open (sharp center, less sharp midframe, sharp again at the corners). I've had a bit of copy variation with the 50 Lux close focusing performance off center as well – 1 was poor / 2 were acceptable.

[TheEyesHaveIt]

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I'm contemplating the same decision, but to throw a third lens in the mix (at least one that has popped up on my radar) is the Thypoch Simera 28mm 1.4. The rendering of the images I've seen just looks stunning.

[LarsHP]

I originally wanted the 28mm Summilux-M, but the price was keeping me waiting for a Cosina Voigtländer equivalent, so when the 28mm Nokton was introduced, I bought it, thinking I would sell the excellent 28mm Ultron II. Instead, I only owned the Nokton for less than half a year, while I haven't sold the Ultron... Instead, I bought the Thypoch Simera 28mm f/1.4, which - except for the coatings - is an overall better lens than the Nokton, IMO.

At medium to long focus distances, the Nokton appears more contrasty, and for this reason looks sharper in the center. Away from center, the Simera beats the Nokton, though, and near MFD, the Simera is clearly better, thanks to its floating lens element design. Another thing is that, even though the difference between f/1.4 and f/1.5 in theory should be invisible or very minor in practical use, the higher degree of blur both in front and behind the point of focus is easily seen, even in the center of the image, eliminating optical vignetting as a factor, a point where the Simera also is better than the Nokton. Both lenses have a slightly inward bending field curvature, but wide open and near the far edges, the sharpness is much, much better from the Thypoch lens.

In short, I think the Thypoch Simera 28mm f/1.4 is not only a bargain, but possibly the best 28mm f/1.4 lens in M mount currently, given the tests Fred Miranda did with the Summilux and the Nokton, as well as Bastian Kratzkes reviews.

Edited September 7, 2024 by LarsHP

[LarsHP]

On 9/5/2024 at 1:52 PM, hmzimelka said:

Have you read Fred's review at www.fredmiranda.com? Personally I'd be leaning Nokton. From what I've read, Fred actually sold his Lux and kept the Nokton.

...

Correct. Found a post where he says that:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1870394/0#16624317

[Derbyshire Man]

Thanks Lars for the replies and digging!

[LarsHP]

I wrote "At medium to long focus distances, the Nokton appears more contrasty, and for this reason looks sharper in the center. Away from center, the Simera beats the Nokton, though, and near MFD, the Simera is clearly better, thanks to its floating lens element design. Another thing is that, even though the difference between f/1.4 and f/1.5 in theory should be invisible or very minor in practical use, the higher degree of blur both in front and behind the point of focus is easily seen, even in the center of the image, eliminating optical vignetting as a factor, a point where the Simera also is better than the Nokton. Both lenses have a slightly inward bending field curvature, but wide open and near the far edges, the sharpness is much, much better from the Thypoch lens"  in the post above.

I was referring to wide open, but can't edit the post now.

Edited September 7, 2024 by LarsHP

[fil-m]

Back to your original post, if you have the opportunity to try both (or others like the Simera) before committing to one lens, I highly recommend that you do and experiment to see (1) which lens handles the best and (2) which one gives you the image characteristics that you are looking for, before making a pick. I personally believe that experiencing the lens is more relevant than technical tests or reviews, even if I like reading them: after experimenting with different lenses, I often end up making a different choice than my initial assumption.

Now the Lux 28 is not the best student in class among fast 28's whether in terms of sharpness, field curvature, CA or other (and let's not talk price), though I cannot "overcome" its unique signature which I liked most among all the 28's that I've tested (except the Simera which I've never used). The vignette, the transitions towards OOF plus its global "silkiness" wide open are amazing. 

[Derbyshire Man]

Having done more reading about the Thypoch I know already that the handling with the infinity lock would drive me crazy although off axis focus looks much better. I hear that they are likely to release a new L mount version without this as the year progresses. I’ve contacted a retailer to try to get more info as I’ll likely purchase. Meanwhile I’ll try to audition a second hand summilux and check against a CV to see which might make a better stopgap or indeed I just stick with the ultron f2 in the meantime. I’m a great fan of the wide open 28mm look and the f2 doesn’t provide for portraits strongly enough unless one gets to unflattering closeness and is also too soft off access. I really don’t like being limited to the rangefinder subject in the centre of the image look. 
 

I’ve got a feeling that the summilux is going to sit between the CV and Thypoch for off axis due to the FLE element but only testing will tell! I don’t need razor sharpness for portraiture and in general prefer a degree of harshness in OOF zones as character vs smoothness. 

[Cris Roberto]

On 9/8/2024 at 5:29 AM, Derbyshire Man said:

Having done more reading about the Thypoch I know already that the handling with the infinity lock would drive me crazy although off axis focus looks much better. I hear that they are likely to release a new L mount version without this as the year progresses. I’ve contacted a retailer to try to get more info as I’ll likely purchase. Meanwhile I’ll try to audition a second hand summilux and check against a CV to see which might make a better stopgap or indeed I just stick with the ultron f2 in the meantime. I’m a great fan of the wide open 28mm look and the f2 doesn’t provide for portraits strongly enough unless one gets to unflattering closeness and is also too soft off access. I really don’t like being limited to the rangefinder subject in the centre of the image look. 
 

I’ve got a feeling that the summilux is going to sit between the CV and Thypoch for off axis due to the FLE element but only testing will tell! I don’t need razor sharpness for portraiture and in general prefer a degree of harshness in OOF zones as character vs smoothness. 

to be honest,

I've been using the Thypoch 28mm for two months and handling and image quality have been great. I too thought the infinity lock would annoy me but I have barely noticed it. as far as IQ, I think it's a slightly smoother fall off. and the bokeh less jittery than the lux, more creamy. sharpness isn't staggering but pretty damned good. I picked this up "used" from amazon from 500$USD, and it looked like it had never been opened. I think it's a steal for the performance. My only complaint is that it's not a Leica lens. If you have been using the Ultron f2 this Thypoch 28 will be an upgrade.  

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Edited September 10, 2024 by Cris Roberto
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[Derbyshire Man]

Thanks Cris, I’ve got one coming tomorrow and my son signed up for off centre portrait duty!

[dkmoore]

The 28, like the 24 Lux, are all about the rendering, which is hugely subjective. 
 

The 24 and 28 Lux to me are in categories of their own. They are incredible. The 28 lux is one of leicas absolute best lenses with its only negative being size and weight. 
 

you get a wonderful, and sometimes magical, cinematic rendering wide open and perfect IQ everywhere else. 
 

I haven’t used the Norton but I’m sure it’s fine. 
 

 

Edited September 11, 2024 by dkmoore

[TheEyesHaveIt]

Outside of a slight color shift, I can’t tell the difference in these types of head to head comparisons. However, the Nokton does have well documented field curvature at 1.5.

 

[Derbyshire Man]

Indeed, the graphical display by Fred M is fascinating, I’d love to see something similar for the lux and Simera. 

I’ve been experimenting with Nokton vs Lux and the focal plane seems flatter and easier to predict on the lux, also I prefer the foreground rendering of the OOF areas when focused mid distance which for me is a common use case along with portrait distance. I’m trying desperately hard to convince myself the voigtlander is the same but it’s not quite. We’ll see what the Simera brings today. 

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[RexGig0]

I am grateful for all of the useful information and comments. In my personal case, the actual goal is to avoid buying any 28mm f/1.4, f/1.5, or f/2 lens, unless there is some specific character or other optical quality that I desire, because 28mm is, for me, rarely used with an aperture wider than f/5.6. If I am going to spend money for a Summilux with a focal length shorter than 35mm, I might well rather that it be 24mm.

[Derbyshire Man]

My testing so far is that the Nokton is a PITA for off centre portraits. The Summilux is good and sharp centre and also pretty good off centre, the curve of the focal plane means the standard deep breath is needed to be sure of focus as it tends towards back focus laterally at portrait distance. The Thypoch is however spot on without any moving backward or forward for centre or off centre.

However I like the rendering of the Summilux best (I'm a black and white shooter), I don't like the infinity lock on the Thypoch, I'm not sure it's focussing well on infinity when wide open and I hear there's a revision on the way without the infinity lock.

More testing in 30 minutes. Desperately trying to save myself money!