Leica Classic Series Lenses: How do you rank them?

[Tessar.]

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I've wondered about the original Summaron 2.8cm.  My reissue, with modern coatings feels like a hot rod.  I'd like to try the original to see if it renders more smoothly. 

I loved the 2nd version of the summilux I owned.  If the glow is greater with the reissue I think it would be too much.  I found the 1m min. focus a bit limiting for a fast lens.

My dream would be a reissued 2.8cm Hektor with modern coatings, but the Summaron-M exists so sadly it would never happen.  So instead I would like the next reissue to be either the 35mm f/3.5 Summaron, in the older ltm/A36 size, with modern coatings.  Or, the 35mm f/3.5 Nickel Elmar with modern coatings.  Or, if it were a 50mm, the Red Scale Elmar.  Sharp and smooth.

Edited August 24, 2024 by Tessar.

[shirubadanieru]

6 hours ago, Tessar. said:

I've wondered about the original Summaron 2.8cm.  My reissue, with modern coatings feels like a hot rod.  I'd like to try the original to see if it renders more smoothly. 

I loved the 2nd version of the summilux I owned.  If the glow is greater with the reissue I think it would be too much.  I found the 1m min. focus a bit limiting for a fast lens.

My dream would be a reissued 2.8cm Hektor with modern coatings, but the Summaron-M exists so sadly it would never happen.  So instead I would like the next reissue to be either the 35mm f/3.5 Summaron, in the older ltm/A36 size, with modern coatings.  Or, the 35mm f/3.5 Nickel Elmar with modern coatings.  Or, if it were a 50mm, the Red Scale Elmar.  Sharp and smooth.

A nickel remake of the elmar 5cm or 3.5cm would be quite interesting huh! 

Edited August 25, 2024 by shirubadanieru

[hansvons]

I’d think that selling is the idea behind reissuing lenses. From that point of view, the Steel Rim reissue makes sense as it’s the copy of a sought-after, legendary vintage lens with tons of mojo that can be made for a price the Leica Aficidiaos would deem to be acceptable.
In the same vein, I coujd see Leica re-making the King of Bokeh. It’s a simple design, sits at the core of the brand’s identity, and has a huge following. A recipe for success.

I could imagine buying one. 

[Alberti]

On 8/25/2024 at 8:47 AM, Al Brown said:

This lens is just slightly revamped Summicron 35/2 (II/III), which is a Mandler design nad renders like the latter. It is well documented in an article "Little Leica Lies" by Mr. Cavina.

Correct.

The Piccole bugie page (little lies) gives the schema of the M-Rokkors, the 40mm shows it 'is' a recalculation of Mandler's Leica 35mm/11309.

- regarding the 28mm, which is also a Leitz (ELC?) design, there is a comparison in the little lies article of the M-Rokkor 28mm with the Elmarit 28mm v1 (11801 !) Now that is an interesting comparison, because today I got a message about an LLL-11801 9E remake.

Quote

the Tutti Fotografi magazine: "and the Rokkor was globally superior (in the average between axis, middle zones and edges) from f/2.8 to f/5.6,"

The 28mm M-Rokkor is comparable or better, for instance, it's MTF is slightly better, but the Leitz is  better in primary colours.  An M-Rokkor 28mm re-edition would have, with better coatings and impecable housing, mind you, remarkable qualities. 

• I am so enticed by the new 11801 9E by the way, having traded in my Biogon-28 and having lost track of my M-Rokkor-28. And the LLL sports great re-thinking: it allows standard 49mm filters instead of Series VII, E48 in the 11801. Yes, for instance a normally available Tiffen/Yellow then also. New Glass. So. . . 

Quote

I’d think that selling is the idea behind reissuing lenses.

. .  ah, then we can forget it. It is a hidden gem. It will never give the clamour or glamour of a Leitz lens re-issue just by it's name alone.

Edited August 28, 2024 by Alberti

[Alberti]

About an LLL-11801 remake: I made a mistake, some of My Own Little Lies: 

Quote

the Tutti Fotografi magazine is quoted by Cavina: "and the Rokkor was globally superior (in the average between axis, middle zones and edges) from f/2.8 to f/5.6,"

I looked at the lens schema that Cavina gives. The 28mm M-Rokkor is comparable or better - compared to the 28mm Elmarit version III.  

[a.noctilux]

Side note concerning M-Rokkor 28mm that I used for many years.

I don't have M-Rokkor 28mm lens anymore "replaced" long ago by other 28mm lenses.

The units is (not when I had it) prone of white spots.

While the 28mm Elmarit-M version III I've never heard of those white spots.

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/28mm_f/2.8_Elmarit-M_III

 

 

 

[tobiasfjp]

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Strangely enough I don't see the Summaron-M listed on Leica's website anymore. Could be an omission, I'm not sure if the website is a reliable reference of what is currently in production? Would be a shame to see it discontinued, I really love mine. Like others have said, a very well executed modern reproduction in my view.

[JoshuaR]

Well, here is my take, as someone who has never owned any of the originals but has used three of the four Leica reissues extensively:

• 28 Summaron: I wanted to love this lens (and did love it at first), but in the end I found that I simply didn't like the way it rendered skin tones on my digital Ms. Somehow it struck me as beautiful for landscapes, but not people. Still, it is so small, cool-looking, and fun that I sometimes think of re-acquiring it and giving it another go. Maybe it was my post-processing.
• 35 Steel Rim: I love love love this lens. I've never owned the original Summilux, so that's not too relevant for me; what I appreciate about the SR Reissue is the modern prismatic way it renders color combined with the gradual shift in look from f/1.4 to f/2.8. It is like a modern-vintage lens to my eye and is my favorite everyday lens for the M system.
• 50 f/1.2 Noctilux: I love love love this one as well. Small, not too heavy, with a similar combination of modern color and old-school rendering to the Steel Rim. It is a special-purpose lens for me at f/1.2 but perfect at f/1.4 and somehow also special at smaller apertures. My only complaint is that in strong sun it sometimes get washed out; the used copy I bought didn't come with a hood, so that may be the problem. But over time I've learned to 'tame' the lens and now use it in a pair with the 35 most days. I prefer it to the 50 Lux ASPH, which I now use mainly in faster-moving situations.

For me, the 35 Steel Rim and 50 Noctilux f/1.2 are my 'ride or die' lenses my M10-R, M10M, and SL2-S. I'd sell every other lens I own (including various modern ASPH lenses) before those two. My personal wish for a new Reissue lens is some sort of 28mm that matches them in rendering. I don't think the Summaron does; perhaps because it's a more faithful reproduction of the original, its images look more old-school to me. Maybe because I mainly take pictures of my family, I find these reissue lenses perfect. (When I photograph other subjects, I more often reach for my modern lenses.)

I also have the LLL 35 8-e: I have the collapsible version and keep it semi-permanently mounted on my M10-M. I like it quite a bit for black and white, but I prefer the way the Steel Rim reissue does color. Still, the 8-e is beautiful and is pretty much the sole reason I haven't sold my M10M.

Since no post is complete without images, here are four: 28 Summaron, 35 Steel Rim, 50 Noctilux, LLL 8-e.

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[Steadimann]

While I am a relatively new to Leica world, I do own 35 Steelrim reissue which I purchased looking for lens with character. I love the lens, its character, size etc. 

 

[spydrxx]

While it it fun and sometimes challenging to rank lenses against one another, I stepped away from many of those detailed comparisons a few years ago as my eyesight, overall health, and age crept up on me. Now I intuitively know what to expect from a given lens in a particular setting and just select that lens from what's on hand. Not scientific, but it works for me.

[hansvons]

16 hours ago, JoshuaRothman said:

For me, the 35 Steel Rim and 50 Noctilux f/1.2 are my 'ride or die' lenses my M10-R, M10M, and SL2-S. I'd sell every other lens I own (including various modern ASPH lenses) before those two.

You touch an interesting point here. Your favourite lenses are character lenses full of softness, flares, glows, anything really that typically would be hold against themin a regular lens test. And you like these “features” because they add authenticity and timelessness to your pictures, nicely demonstrated in your post. 

Before 2009-2010, shooting films was still mostly 35mm. In that time, lens development advanced tremendously. The difference between 80ies Zeiss Superspeeds and the new Zeiss Masterprimes was stunning. We loved the Masterprimes to death. They took out the mushiness of the medium film, added acutance, vibrancy, and sharpness. But the images still had that film-inheritant authenticity and mood that we loved so much.

Enter digital. It took only a year (roughly 2009-2010) that prices of old prime sets sky-rocketed. A set of beaten-up Super Speeds tripled in that time. This trend flat-lined around 2018 probably due to market saturation and new lens designs that mimic the look of vintage lenses (like the SR reissue).

What happened? Basically, digital cinematography was all about how to tame a sensor’s plastic-ness, unforgiveness, sharpness, lack of delicate colour reproduction, carrot-looking skin tones, and harsh roll-offs in the whites. Old glass came to the rescue and turned into precious vintage lenses we now appreciate so much.

On film, however, I prefer modern lenses. Leica’s aspherical designs do today what modern lenses did back then: making film images look less mushy, adding clarity and acutance, bringing the best out of the medium, which itself is full of flaws, mood, and authenticity. 

 

Edited November 28, 2024 by hansvons

[tobiasfjp]

Well said @hansvons I fully agree. I compiled and owned a set of Zeiss Superspeeds (B-Speeds) for years and shot lots and lots on them on digital cameras. Absolutely stunning lenses. Like you though, I also prefer modern lenses on film (both still and cine), although somehow the Summaron-M is the exception for me.

Edited November 28, 2024 by tobiasfjp

[hansvons]

2 minutes ago, tobiasfjp said:

I compiled and owned a set of Zeiss Superspeeds (B-Speeds) for a few years and shot lots and lots on them on digital cameras.

I can relate to that very much, Tobias. In early 1990, I bought an Arri SR with a set of 16mm High Speeds and used them and the camera intensively for everything that was not TVC. In 2008, it was highly obvious that digital will take over the high-end productions as well, and film will go the way of the Dodo (it did not!). So, I jumped on the Red Bandwagon, got a Red One (quite an ordeal, fortunately Arri managed not to take the Kodak route) and swapped the High Speed set for a proper Super Speed MK2 set early enough, right in front of the wave. I sold the set in 2018 for 4x the price I had paid.

I find the Super Speeds overrated. 

[tobiasfjp]

Ah the Red one, I shot loads on that too, what a beast... I had a set of 16mm Mk3's too, so the old B-speeds for digital S35 and the much more modern Mk3's for 16mm film. Very similar to you.

17 minutes ago, hansvons said:

I find the Super Speeds overrated. 

This I have to agree with very much though. The original SuperSpeeds (B-Speeds) with the triangular aperture as used on The Shining and Taxi Driver are some of the most beautiful lenses ever made in my opinion, and they shine especially on digital. Here's an example we shot on them: https://vimeo.com/303698338

[hansvons]

The 16mm used the same triangular aperture design. It didn't bother me nor did I consider it to be a “thing”. It just was there. @tobiasfjp Interesting examples. Never had an eye for that. Bokeh wasn't a thing back then. Thanks for sharing!! 

Why I find the Super Speeds overated is totally subjective. Like Leica’s Summiluxes, they glow hardcore at t/1.3, most notably the Distagons. They are (too) soft open rose at 18mm and 25mm, with the 18mm barely usable in medium and longer distances. At t/2.4, this is very different. They tend to show a distinct magenta-blue tinge at full aperture that neutralises as you stop down, again the wider Distagons more pronounced.

But they render beautiful skin tones when colour corrected. And boy, what a delicate flatness. 

So, maybe they are not overrated after all😊.

Edited November 28, 2024 by hansvons

[costa43]

17 hours ago, JoshuaRothman said:

Well, here is my take, as someone who has never owned any of the originals but has used three of the four Leica reissues extensively:

• 28 Summaron: I wanted to love this lens (and did love it at first), but in the end I found that I simply didn't like the way it rendered skin tones on my digital Ms. Somehow it struck me as beautiful for landscapes, but not people. Still, it is so small, cool-looking, and fun that I sometimes think of re-acquiring it and giving it another go. Maybe it was my post-processing.
• 35 Steel Rim: I love love love this lens. I've never owned the original Summilux, so that's not too relevant for me; what I appreciate about the SR Reissue is the modern prismatic way it renders color combined with the gradual shift in look from f/1.4 to f/2.8. It is like a modern-vintage lens to my eye and is my favorite everyday lens for the M system.
• 50 f/1.2 Noctilux: I love love love this one as well. Small, not too heavy, with a similar combination of modern color and old-school rendering to the Steel Rim. It is a special-purpose lens for me at f/1.2 but perfect at f/1.4 and somehow also special at smaller apertures. My only complaint is that in strong sun it sometimes get washed out; the used copy I bought didn't come with a hood, so that may be the problem. But over time I've learned to 'tame' the lens and now use it in a pair with the 35 most days. I prefer it to the 50 Lux ASPH, which I now use mainly in faster-moving situations.

For me, the 35 Steel Rim and 50 Noctilux f/1.2 are my 'ride or die' lenses my M10-R, M10M, and SL2-S. I'd sell every other lens I own (including various modern ASPH lenses) before those two. My personal wish for a new Reissue lens is some sort of 28mm that matches them in rendering. I don't think the Summaron does; perhaps because it's a more faithful reproduction of the original, its images look more old-school to me. Maybe because I mainly take pictures of my family, I find these reissue lenses perfect. (When I photograph other subjects, I more often reach for my modern lenses.)

I also have the LLL 35 8-e: I have the collapsible version and keep it semi-permanently mounted on my M10-M. I like it quite a bit for black and white, but I prefer the way the Steel Rim reissue does color. Still, the 8-e is beautiful and is pretty much the sole reason I haven't sold my M10M.

Since no post is complete without images, here are four: 28 Summaron, 35 Steel Rim, 50 Noctilux, LLL 8-e.

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Lovely pics. 

[Homo Faber]

Am 23.8.2024 um 12:52 schrieb Al Brown:

Most people were most disappointed with Steel Rim re-edition. It was big shoes to put themselves into for Leica.
The absolute re-issue winner is LLL as OP wrote with the 8-element. Amazing and fantastic.

And what is coming next is most likely something from @shirubadanieru list.

So would you recommend the LLL 35mm 8 element over the steel rim reissue?

[hansvons]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

I always personally prefered Zeiss over Cooke, those of you who are familiar will know what I mean.

I was the exception: Zeiss Super Speeds and Cooke. I still own my late-70s Apocalypse Now-featured Cooke 20-100, which produces unbelievable flares and a second-to-none dimensionality. The last time I used it was in 2018 😳. As with many other things we all own and herd, I should reallocate it to someone who is appropriately leveraging it.

That said, back then, Leica wasn't a thing in cine lenses (they had some say in the Panavision Primos, tough). Today, that's quite different. Interestingly, Leica and the cine market have made friends in recent years. Considering how important a distinct personality in lenses is recognised today and how good Leica is at that (including marketing), it was inevitable.

[Homo Faber]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Al Brown:

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Yes but not as a fully character lens. It has a very 70s look in render, more like 35 cron IV (the first Summicron 35  with 8 elements it mimics was increible), neat but still retaining that vibe of the old school. It cannot match the glow of steel rim, nor the bottle bottom look wide open of 50/1.2, but it can produce some very alluring images. I shot my recent Japan trip with it.

Looking at the picture you have provided I can‘t but thinking that LLL looks cool but also a little on the cheap side (painting). How happy are you with the built quality?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Homo Faber]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Al Brown:

The painting on mine is specific as this is a LLL special edition (click). I did create an image thread for the lens, you can see it HERE. A detailed comparison with the original Summicron 8 element M lens is HERE. I like it and this one, unlike most Chinese lenses, is built very well (faithfully following Leitz specs), BUT some tiny sloppy production weakneses float up here and there - like the unscrewing of the front elements group due to bad glue on the inner retaining ring (which is only accessible if you take the lens apart). All in all generally a really well made product - and you cannot claim that (like most people who say "built like a tank" for Chinese lenses, lol) until you have opened it up. I did.
The biggest problem of this lens are sample variations. Lens should be as good as 35mm 8 element summicron wide open, even slightly better. Have seen many shitty copies with bad QC.

I see. Thank you for taking the time the answer so elaborately.