BernardC Posted January 6 Share #101 Posted January 6 Advertisement (gone after registration) 2 minutes ago, Simone_DF said: The AF that get confused the most sadly is Leica's. Whenever there is more than 2-3 people in the frame, and face/eye detect is enabled, the AF jumps around from face to face like crazy. My workaround is to disable face detect and switch to crosshair, and that's fine, but I really wish Leica's team could spend their effort to make the focus point more sticky. That would really make a big difference. That comment was about the S5ii, relative to Sony, in video mode. We'll see where we stand once the SL3-S is released. Your comment reminds me of when I tried the Fuji GFX100 (not sure that's the exact model name, I'm talking about their first 100MP body). The AF would lock onto a different point every time I touched the shutter button. Switching to manual focus wasn't a good option for me because of the EVF and focus feel. Ultimately what I ended-up with is 100 megapixels of mis-focused images. It really goes to show that AF systems not only need to be fast/accurate, depending on your priorities, they also need to behave in a predictable way. I would gladly give-up a few milliseconds for a system that doesn't jump all over. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 6 Posted January 6 Hi BernardC, Take a look here Autofocus Comparison Leica SL2(-S) vs. Leica SL3. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted January 6 Share #102 Posted January 6 2 hours ago, LD_50 said: I think they’ve upgraded significantly with the R5ii. I haven’t used it but I was told it’s at or near R3 level. R1 seems so rare I can’t comment on its ability. That said I’m surprised F1 would be challenging for any of the newest AF systems. The motion is not very erratic in motorsports. I’ve shot MotoGP with the SL without much issue. It’s similar to F1. I agree with everything you said regarding mirrorless and the lack of need for calibration (overcome by the use of CDAF or PDAF/CDAF hybrid). The resolution point is important as well, especially with more shallow DOF. If you cannot comment on Panasonic because you don’t know how their latest offering performs why do you comment? My remarks were wholly about the R5ii which is Panasonic’s first PDAF/CDAF hybrid system and one that is well received by serious reviewers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD_50 Posted January 6 Share #103 Posted January 6 (edited) 32 minutes ago, jaapv said: If you cannot comment on Panasonic because you don’t know how their latest offering performs why do you comment? My remarks were wholly about the R5ii which is Panasonic’s first PDAF/CDAF hybrid system and one that is well received by serious reviewers. This is a strange comment given the quoted post and no mention of Panasonic… Also, it’s strange given the origin of the thread and my first comment where I said: “This all leads me back to the question at the heart of this thread: has Leica improved the SL3 significantly over the SL2 and/or SL2-S in terms of AFc and tracking?” I’ve been pretty clear I’ve not shot the SL3. I’ve also been pretty clear there is not a lot of information available on the use of AFc, tracking, and continuous shooting with this camera. Multiple posters have suggested the camera was never designed for this purpose. Everything I read demonstrates it doesn’t offer competitive AF performance for this type of shooting. Do you agree? Do you disagree? Are you suggesting the S5ii is significantly better than the SL2 and SL2-S? Is it significantly better than the SL3? The only comment I made about the S5ii’s performance was in relation to the need to limit to 24 MP, given Sony and Nikon (and possibly Canon with the R5ii) have achieved better AF performance with higher resolution. Do you agree with this? Do you disagree with this? The S5ii is easier to find information on, and from what I’ve read and watched in videos, the AF doesn’t look competitive with the best from Sony, Nikon, or Canon. Do you agree or disagree? It does look like it may be better than my SL2-S. I don’t care for the S5ii body and I don’t want to invest in another 24 MP camera so it’s not an option for me. It may help to show where the next Leica camera ends up. We’ll see with the SL3-S. I’m not sure which level of experience should prevent me from commenting. Edited January 6 by LD_50 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 6 Share #104 Posted January 6 Yes, shooting SL2S and S5ii side by side I can confirm that the S5ii is significantly better. https://www.digitec.ch/en/page/lumix-s5ii-review-a-panasonic-camera-with-good-autofocus-finally-26019?lightbox=op 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD_50 Posted January 6 Share #105 Posted January 6 33 minutes ago, jaapv said: Yes, shooting SL2S and S5ii side by side I can confirm that the S5ii is significantly better. https://www.digitec.ch/en/page/lumix-s5ii-review-a-panasonic-camera-with-good-autofocus-finally-26019?lightbox=op Thanks for this link. The AF video comparison looks certainly improved. Which do you feel is closer to SL3, the S5 or the S5ii? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted January 6 Share #106 Posted January 6 The S5ii, with current firmware, is better AF wise, than the SL3. The SL3 is better than the S5 original. I pick up my A1ii and 28-70 f2.0 tomorrow. It’ll be my *action* camera moving forward. But I’ll still use the SL3’s more. Very very happy with them after the latest firmware update. All I want now id EFCS and I’m completely happy with the SL3. Gordon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 6 Share #107 Posted January 6 Advertisement (gone after registration) 15 minutes ago, LD_50 said: Thanks for this link. The AF video comparison looks certainly improved. Which do you feel is closer to SL3, the S5 or the S5ii? Really can't say, having no experience of the SL3. But the S5 (which I do have) is miles behind the S5ii. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simone_DF Posted January 7 Share #108 Posted January 7 20 hours ago, LD_50 said: This seems to be a challenge with several systems. It would be nice to have an option to “stick” on a face and then only change when prompted with the joystick. Not really. Sony and Canon's AF, once locked onto a subject, stay on the subject until AF is disengaged or focus is lost. In general, at least for AF stickiness, both brands are more reliable by a good margin. That's where Panasonic and Leica should focus their efforts, imho. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 7 Share #109 Posted January 7 34 minutes ago, Simone_DF said: Not really. Sony and Canon's AF, once locked onto a subject, stay on the subject until AF is disengaged or focus is lost. In general, at least for AF stickiness, both brands are more reliable by a good margin. That's where Panasonic and Leica should focus their efforts, imho. Which should also improve focus tracking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
helged Posted January 7 Share #110 Posted January 7 53 minutes ago, Simone_DF said: Not really. Sony and Canon's AF, once locked onto a subject, stay on the subject until AF is disengaged or focus is lost. In general, at least for AF stickiness, both brands are more reliable by a good margin. That's where Panasonic and Leica should focus their efforts, imho. +1. I havn't used Sony, but for Canon R5 (which is not Canon's top AF performer), not only stickiness, but also fps and sensor readout time/rolling shutter issues are at another level compared to S5ii, SL2-S and SL3. Looking forward to the day an L-mount body doubles the AFc hit rate for fast moving subjects with 10-ish fps and a sensor read out time of 10 ms or less (presently at 20+ ms for S5ii, SL2-S and SL3). In the mean time, SL3 serves my use. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malabito Posted January 7 Share #111 Posted January 7 If you compare them to the competition, as in recent Nikon, canon and sony, both are terrible. IF you compare them between them it depends in how you find the sl2s autofocus, if you find it soso, you will find the sl3 to be a considerable improvement, if you find the sl2s bad, you will still find the sl3 mediocre. Besides the autofocus not been sticky enough, its also a software implementation issue. This for photo, for video the autofocus is considerably improved over the sl2s, this given how bad it was with the sl2s. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crem Posted January 7 Share #112 Posted January 7 (edited) On 1/6/2025 at 6:03 AM, BernardC said: Also, don't forget that when people claim that Leica isn't as good as others, they mean cameras like the Canon R1, Nikon Z9, and Sony a1, which are high-end sports cameras. Leica is more competitive with those brands' other models, like the R5. The Sony A7iii launched in 2018 and has AF that you can leave in AFC and do just about anything with. I'd argue my old A7C (a smaller A7iii) has sigificantly better AF than what I've seen in the SL2/SL3. I'm not even talking about sports or fast action. I'm talking about daily real world use with my family for example. The only annoyance is you need to properly setup the Sony in the correct mode, but once that's done it works amazingly well to just leave it in AFC all the time for both stills and video. I have setup back button focusing for tracking and the lens button for eye AF. It just works and hit rates are incredibly high even when moving. I really don't think the SL2/SL3 are even in the same league as an older Sony and this is coming from a person that absolutely loves Leica products. Edited January 7 by Crem 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malabito Posted January 7 Share #113 Posted January 7 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Crem said: The Sony A7iii launched in 2018 and has AF that you can leave in AFC and do just about anything with. I'd argue my old A7C (a smaller A7iii) has sigificantly better AF than what I've seen in the SL2/SL3. I'm not even talking about sports or fast action. I'm talking about daily real world use of my family for example. The only annoyance is you need to properly setup the Sony in the correct mode, but once that's done it works amazingly well to just leave it in AFC all the time for both stills and video. I have setup back button focusing for tracking and the lens button for eye AF. It just works and hit rates are incredibly high even when moving. I really don't think the SL2/SL3 are even in the same league as an older Sony and this is coming from a person that absolutely loves Leica products. indeed, the a7iii/a7r3 which were released in 2017/2018, have way better autofocus than the sl3, even the Nikon z6 and z7, versions 1 and 2 which people complain about have better autofocus. Leica is still playing catching up in regard to autofocus. Funny thing is, the Pana S5v2, is not as bad as the sl3, so perhaps the sl3 might at least reach the s5v2 level with firmware updates, (hopefully the sl3s does, so i can update my sl2s to an sl3s if it ever comes out).... Edited January 7 by Malabito 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crem Posted January 7 Share #114 Posted January 7 4 minutes ago, Malabito said: indeed, the a7iii/a7r3 which were released in 2017/2018, have way better autofocus than the sl3, even the Nikon z6 and z7, versions 1 and 2 which people complain about have better autofocus. Leica is still playing catching up in regard to autofocus. Funny thing is, the Pana S5v2, is not as bad as the sl3, so perhaps the sl3 might at least reach the s5v level with firmware updates, (hopefully the sl3s does, so i can update my sl2s to an sl3s if it ever comes out).... I too am extremely hopeful they catch up. I do think a small percentage of it is lens design. It’s shocking how fast the linear motors are in some Sony native lenses. I have no doubt that speed helps in AFC. I want to upgrade my sl2s to a sl3s, but I won’t do it based on what I see in the sl3 AF. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
helged Posted January 7 Share #115 Posted January 7 1 hour ago, Crem said: I too am extremely hopeful they catch up. I do think a small percentage of it is lens design. It’s shocking how fast the linear motors are in some Sony native lenses. I have no doubt that speed helps in AFC. I want to upgrade my sl2s to a sl3s, but I won’t do it based on what I see in the sl3 AF. Regarding lens focus speed; I find eg Sigma DG DN 70-200, Sigma DG DN 500mm, Panasonic 100mm macro (as well as Panasonic 50mm f1.4) to be rather fast, and clearly faster than the Leica APO Summicron primes (and zooms and 50 SL-Lux). So yes, the focus motor implementation matters. But SLx and S5x also lack wrt to FW: I rather consistently get the focus point to be located 10-20 cm behind the target (=eyes) for a dog running towards me. I would think that after a few focus distance meterings, say 5-10 meterings, a fast model (differential equation or similar) can be used to estimate the speed of the subject, thus precondition the focus point for the following image to be taken. As of now, it looks like when the camera has got the target in focus, the focus point is fixed whereas the subject moves out of the focus plane. One would think that a sensor with less than 60 mp, and a faster processor and/or an improved AF algorithm will substantially improve AFc. Whether this will happen at the next or future incarnations of SLx or Lumix Sx remains to be seen... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crem Posted January 7 Share #116 Posted January 7 (edited) 52 minutes ago, helged said: Regarding lens focus speed; I find eg Sigma DG DN 70-200, Sigma DG DN 500mm, Panasonic 100mm macro (as well as Panasonic 50mm f1.4) to be rather fast, and clearly faster than the Leica APO Summicron primes (and zooms and 50 SL-Lux). So yes, the focus motor implementation matters. But SLx and S5x also lack wrt to FW: I rather consistently get the focus point to be located 10-20 cm behind the target (=eyes) for a dog running towards me. I would think that after a few focus distance meterings, say 5-10 meterings, a fast model (differential equation or similar) can be used to estimate the speed of the subject, thus precondition the focus point for the following image to be taken. As of now, it looks like when the camera has got the target in focus, the focus point is fixed whereas the subject moves out of the focus plane. One would think that a sensor with less than 60 mp, and a faster processor and/or an improved AF algorithm will substantially improve AFc. Whether this will happen at the next or future incarnations of SLx or Lumix Sx remains to be seen... That's a really interesting engineering analysis and something I haven't thought much about (until now). I assume Sony/Canon/Nikon have done a lot of work to build both code and data into the firmware to do things like you said... predict how fast a subject is moving, the direction it's moving, and tell the auto focus motors to move the focus group(s) to where they will need to be in X milliseconds vs where they need to be moved for this current point in time. Just thinking about it in these terms made me realize it's a lot of work and requires knowing things specific to each lens like focal length, estimated object distance/speed, focus motor speed, etc. I have no idea if Sony/Canon/Nikon do all of this or not, but it would seem likely. It would also make sense why a company like Leica would be so far behind. Adding phase detect is only one part of the problem. Fuji has had phase detect for many years prior to the launch of the Sony A7iii in 2017/2018 and their AF has never been on par with Sony or a modern Canon mirrorless. Thinking about the engineering problems made me realize how much of an uphill battle Leica has to even hit 2017/2018 Sony levels. Their realistic goal is probably more to be on-par with Fuji and Panasonic. Edited January 7 by Crem 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 7 Share #117 Posted January 7 1 hour ago, helged said: Regarding lens focus speed; I find eg Sigma DG DN 70-200, Sigma DG DN 500mm, Panasonic 100mm macro (as well as Panasonic 50mm f1.4) to be rather fast, and clearly faster than the Leica APO Summicron primes (and zooms and 50 SL-Lux). So yes, the focus motor implementation matters. But SLx and S5x also lack wrt to FW: I rather consistently get the focus point to be located 10-20 cm behind the target (=eyes) for a dog running towards me. I would think that after a few focus distance meterings, say 5-10 meterings, a fast model (differential equation or similar) can be used to estimate the speed of the subject, thus precondition the focus point for the following image to be taken. As of now, it looks like when the camera has got the target in focus, the focus point is fixed whereas the subject moves out of the focus plane. One would think that a sensor with less than 60 mp, and a faster processor and/or an improved AF algorithm will substantially improve AFc. Whether this will happen at the next or future incarnations of SLx or Lumix Sx remains to be seen... That is strange; this is the S5ii with Sigma 70-200 zooming to keep up.(Sorry to mix up the sequence - plucked it from an old post) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/402419-autofocus-comparison-leica-sl2-s-vs-leica-sl3/?do=findComment&comment=5735650'>More sharing options...
helged Posted January 7 Share #118 Posted January 7 34 minutes ago, jaapv said: That is strange; this is the S5ii with Sigma 70-200 zooming to keep up.(Sorry to mix up the sequence - plucked it from an old post) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! No, it's not strange at all. The depth of focus in these images are several meters. Redo the images with the dog much closer and with the lens fairly open, so you have a depth of focus of, say, some 10s of cm. Where is the focus sitting? I have thousands of images in this scenario with S5, S5ii, SL2-S, SL3 and Canon R5 (now sold). Typical focal length is I the 70 (sometimes 50) to 200mm. In such situations, R5 keeps the focus on the dog's eyes at 90+ % of the time, with an image rate of 20 fps. With S5ii and SL3, the focus is ok-ish at 50-60 % of time, at an image rate of 5-ish fps. Huge difference. I know that the newest bodies from the big players are doing better than R5. But I am (mostly) happy with the SL-system, so I am not overly interested in having an additional system (been there, done that). So 'all' I hope for is that SLx (or Lumix Sx, or Sigma something) will significantly improve regarding AFc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 7 Share #119 Posted January 7 I'll have to look at EXIF. Fact is that the 70-200 is by far the fastest focusing lens I have. AF is not just the camera body. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosgavina Posted January 21 Share #120 Posted January 21 I’m considering upgrading from my Leica SL2-S to the SL3. I rarely use AFC on the SL2-S because I find it underwhelming, but I do want a camera with more megapixels. However, I’m worried the SL3 might not offer any real improvement in autofocus — or worse, it might be the same or even less reliable. I primarily shoot travel, landscapes, and candid moments/portraits, so quick, accurate autofocus (minimal hunting) is much more important to me than high-speed continuous tracking. I already have a Nikon Z8 for the latter. For anyone who has tried the SL3, how does its autofocus compare to the SL2-S? • Is it the same? • Slightly better? • Worse? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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