fullspectrum Monochrome Full Spectrum - UV - VIS - IR - someone modified it

[ph0toni]

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Has anyone modified their Leica Monochrom to full spectrum ?
To use filters for ultraviolet
or infrared (or normal) vision
Thanks
Toni

 

https://www.ultravioletphotography.com/content/index.php?/profile/141-photoni/

www.flickr.com/photos/stenopeic/53930274293/

Sony A7 Full spectrum

UP - infrared with Hoya R72 - 720 nm

Down - Ultraviolet ~ 350 nm

 

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Edited August 20, 2024 by ph0toni

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[jaapv]

No real need; it is pretty sensitive to UV or IR as it is. 

[ph0toni]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

No real need; it is pretty sensitive to UV or IR as it is. 

If it's true... it's a mistake.
UVs are a damage, they only create haze in landscapes and harshness in portraits.
Once the standard BW photographic film was very shifted towards UV blue, it was corrected with a yellow filter...it was supplied with my father's IIIF

I tried an M10 Mono, with a 720 nm filter... it's blind like my Nikon Z7
Fuji X... it's more sensitive
I'm interested in comparing a F.S. "RGB" like my Sony and a Leica Mono.
I'd like to take it and make it F.S.
kolarivision.com makes Monochrome modifications of many brands, even Fuji GFX, but the microlenses on the sensor are lost
Thanks. Toni

[jaapv]

I have taken some very nice UV images with the M8 using a vintage Summilux 50 lens and a UV pass filter.  The point is that the UV filtering of a digital Leica is not on the sensor, all lenses since ca.1960 block UV light so there is no need. I am not aware that Leica changed this and I rather doubt it..
What lens did you use on your M10 Mono? I bet it filtered out the UV so your test was moot.
You cannot use an M camera without microlenses, it will vignette like mad; Kolari only replaces the IR filter. Even if you make an M camera Full Spectrum (by replacing the IR filter) there are very few lenses that will allow you to do UV. 

BTW, a Yellow filter does not filter UV It filters out blue, for UV you need - errm... a UV filter.

[frame-it]

20 minutes ago, ph0toni said:

If it's true... it's a mistake.
UVs are a damage, they only create haze in landscapes and harshness in portraits.
Once the standard BW photographic film was very shifted towards UV blue, it was corrected with a yellow filter...it was supplied with my father's IIIF

I tried an M10 Mono, with a 720 nm filter... it's blind like my Nikon Z7
Fuji X... it's more sensitive
I'm interested in comparing a F.S. "RGB" like my Sony and a Leica Mono.
I'd like to take it and make it F.S.
kolarivision.com makes Monochrome modifications of many brands, even Fuji GFX, but the microlenses on the sensor are lost
Thanks. Toni

even if the camera is converted for UV, the lenses are very important, you need

1) Old vintage lenses with very few uncoated elements, really have to research and hunt for those lenses, though they're usually very cheap

OR

2) UV nikkor 105mm [rare]

OR

3) Jenoptik > https://www.jenoptik.us/products/optical-systems/customized-and-standardized-objective-lenses/multispectral-objective-lenses

 

IR is much easier with a converted camera and assortment of lenses both old and new.

the microlenses shoudnt be lost, because they're below the Ir filter

 

[ph0toni]

@jaapv

Yes M8 had these "issues" M10 and M11 do not... they cut out all UV and IR.

You read wrong, I talked about a test with a M10 with a Hoya R72 720 nm infrared filter ... not about UV photography
For IR many lenses work well, even my old Nikkor-H 24mm and 50 and other old M42 lenses

Black and white film, both standard and orthochromatic and even IR is sensitive below the visible 400nm

 

@frame-it For UV I don't have a $5~6000 UV Nikkor 105
I have a "Cooke triplet" - Meritar 50 f 2.9
other old 35mm M42 screw lenses
an EL-Nikkor 80 f4.5 for enlarger
the Leitz 50 f 3.5 of my Leica IIIF also works well

 

Thanks. Toni

Edited August 20, 2024 by ph0toni

[frame-it]

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40 minutes ago, ph0toni said:

I have a "Cooke triplet" - Meritar 50 f 2.9
other old 35mm M42 screw lenses
an EL-Nikkor 80 f4.5 for enlarger
the Leitz 50 f 3.5 of my Leica IIIF also works well

thats great

[ph0toni]

Sony A7 full spectrum with Hoya R72 (720 nm) - Nikkor-H 24mm f2,8 @ f:11

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.

Sony A7 full spectrum with UV filters (~350 nm) - Nikkor-H 24mm f2,8 @ f:11 - darkened sky with vignetting in post production

.

[ph0toni]

Good morning.

Thanks  @jaapv  @frame-it
I spoke with a very knowledgeable person in the Leica Store in Milan Italy.
He confirmed that the first Monochrome (CCD) and the second 246 (CMOS) have the hot mirror filter glued to the sensor, so you can't modify full spectrum or infrared.
This is possible with the M10M, M11M, and the SL2 and 3

I believe that in addition to Kolari (USA) there are laboratories in Europe that do "Astro" or "full spectrum" modifications
Logically you lose any official repair guarantee.
The cheapest solution (but APSC reflex) is the Pentax K 3 III monochrome
The complete conversion with filter costs less than € 300
https://www.astrohobby.it/prodotto/full-spectrum-aps-c-con-filtro-pentax/

Goodbye and thank you
below
standard view - false color
Ultraviolet - Infrared
Toni

.

 

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Edited August 30, 2024 by ph0toni

[jaapv]

The M9 CCD can have the IR filter replaced and it is done regularly by for instance Kolari. The M8 sensor is the same sensor, only smaller I would get my information from Kolari if I were you. 

[ph0toni]

11 hours ago, jaapv said:

The M9 CCD can have the IR filter replaced and it is done regularly by for instance Kolari. The M8 sensor is the same sensor, only smaller I would get my information from Kolari if I were you. 

@jaapv The shipping, return and customs fees are too high to have an old Leica modified.
I was interested in the 246 mono, theoretically for UV photos it is 5-7 stops more sensitive than the "color"
Now with the Sony f.s. and the UV filter, with the strong August sun at 12 o'clock it is 1/60 - f:3,5 - 1600iso - with Soligor 35mm
I think I will give up this dream, it is too expensive, I am retired, I do not work for a museum or the scientific criminal police

Thanks. Toni

[250swb]

I always thought my MM was pretty good with an IR filter used, sure not the full scale horrendous IR effect but it offered something to boost a scene. Same really with other modern digital cameras I've got, my Nikon Z7 is not bad with a strong IR filter on the lens and not much different in IR quality from my 'old' and IR converted Panasonic GF1. And to be honest for a full IR effect nobody is going to be looking at 'image quality' and peeping into detail, they'll be standing back in shock and awe, so a 12mp camera is pretty good as a sacrifice.

[ph0toni]

The old cameras had a very weak hot pass filter.
My Nikon D1x worked with both IR and UV filters.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/stenopeic/53722536937

I've heard the same thing about the M8 and M9.
TODAY modern cameras have a very effective hot pass filter.

@250swb you inspired me to test my Sony A7 full spectrum with the standard Nikon Z7. I used the same M42 screw lens Soligor 35mm f:3.5 @ f:8 with the same filters (is good for IR & UV)
With Hoya R72 (720nm) the A7 is 1/320" with Z7 is 30" ... that's about 13 stops and the image quality is poor.
The R72 filter works much better and is faster with my friend's Fuji

 

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[250swb]

2 hours ago, ph0toni said:

 

@250swb you inspired me to test my Sony A7 full spectrum with the standard Nikon Z7. I used the same M42 screw lens Soligor 35mm f:3.5 @ f:8 with the same filters (is good for IR & UV)
With Hoya R72 (720nm) the A7 is 1/320" with Z7 is 30" ... that's about 13 stops and the image quality is poor.
 

 

 

We can see you haven't got both cameras set up the same because of the massive difference in colour balance in the unfiltered shots which goes well beyond manufacturers own slight deviations and IR receptivity. If a scientist was planning to compare two apples they'd ensure one of them isn't a pineapple. If I edit the Z7 unfiltered images in Photoshop and press 'Auto Color' it shows the colour balance is way off compared with the Sony. So whether it's the metering pattern you are using or something else you've overlooked you need to standardise the two starting photographs as much as possible before proceeding. And how a UV filter can make such a difference in exposure (1/3 for the Sony and 20 seconds for the Nikon) is impossible to understand given many people use a UV filter as a clear protection filter.

[ph0toni]

3 hours ago, 250swb said:

5 hours ago, ph0toni said:

We can see you haven't got both cameras set up the same because of the massive difference in colour balance in the unfiltered shots which goes well beyond manufacturers own slight deviations and IR receptivity

I used the same reference for white balance. the chimney of the dark house on the right. Soft is C1 best for UV

3 hours ago, 250swb said:

And how a UV filter can make such a difference in exposure (1/3 for the Sony and 20 seconds for the Nikon) is impossible to understand given many people use a UV filter as a clear protection filter.

HaHa it is not an anti UV filter that blocks ultraviolet it is the opposite they are two stacked filters that only let UV from 350 to 400 nm pass (we see from 410 to 700 nm)

[250swb]

4 hours ago, ph0toni said:

I used the same reference for white balance. the chimney of the dark house on the right. Soft is C1 best for UV

HaHa it is not an anti UV filter that blocks ultraviolet it is the opposite they are two stacked filters that only let UV from 350 to 400 nm pass (we see from 410 to 700 nm)

Good to hear, and yes a 'UV' filter is very different from a 'UV Bandpass' filter but it's an important difference. Now we only need to understand why there is such a massive discrepancy in exposure. Edit, forgot to say that if the false colour in the Z7 R72 image is removed, and the brightness increased (because it's not as bright) it becomes very similar to the Sony image. Have you tried comparing the images without colour?

Edited September 1, 2024 by 250swb

[ph0toni]

16 hours ago, 250swb said:

Have you tried comparing the images without colour?

 

@250swb I developed the two RAWs with C1 by removing the saturation and adjusting the curves.
Yes, the images are similar (even if it is not the same scene, the sun in the one above with Z7 has illuminated the cloud more)
however the abysmal difference in exposure remains; with the Z7 30" on a tripod you can only take static photos, with a full spectrum 1/320" you can do Streetphotography

.

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I reworked a file that you can find on my "stenopeic" account on Flickr, to make clear the differences between the standard Z5 (or Z7) and the Sony A7 full spectrum
I'm interested in the UV part
I thought about having a Leica 246 Mono modified because without the RGB Bayer filter the sensitivity is 5 stops higher than the 240.
But the project is too expensive (purchase + modification from Kolari)

.

.

 

[jaapv]

On 9/1/2024 at 6:54 AM, ph0toni said:

The old cameras had a very weak hot pass filter.
My Nikon D1x worked with both IR and UV filters.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/stenopeic/53722536937

I've heard the same thing about the M8 and M9.
TODAY modern cameras have a very effective hot pass filter.

@250swb you inspired me to test my Sony A7 full spectrum with the standard Nikon Z7. I used the same M42 screw lens Soligor 35mm f:3.5 @ f:8 with the same filters (is good for IR & UV)
With Hoya R72 (720nm) the A7 is 1/320" with Z7 is 30" ... that's about 13 stops and the image quality is poor.
The R72 filter works much better and is faster with my friend's Fuji

 

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Leica M cameras still pass quite a bit of IR. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ph0toni]

Good morning, here is an example of what I would like to create.
This image is 2480x3720 wide, I cut the upper part for privacy and to respect the maximum dimensions; it is saved in Jpeg with AdobeRGB color profile and quality 10 (which compression does your site recommend?)

Sony A7 full specth with two visible cut filters, UV image from 350 to 400 nm - Soligor 35mm f3.5 lens - M42 screw - direct sunlight - 1600 iso - 1/60 - f3.5

I imagine that with a full spectrum M10M I could gain 8 stops

Thanks for your time. Toni

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[ph0toni]

An interesting scale of light frequency.
Made with a Sony A7 full spectrum RGB and filters ranging from deep ultraviolet to visible to deep infrared
.
I would love to be able to do this again with a Leica monochrom or a Pentax monochrom, full spectrum that does not have the Bayer filter on the sensor.
.
file 800x2224 pixels - 352 KB - Adobe Photoshop sRGB. - © photoni@tiscali.it
.
Thanks
Toni

.

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