AGO Film Processor for home darkrooms

[TomB_tx]

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The AGO film processor is a new interesting concept for home use. Lower cost than many system (under $500 USD when I bought mine), it uses a different method of “controlling” processing temperature: it doesn’t try to keep temperature constant, but compensates the processing time by monitoring the solution temperature all during the cycle and adjusts the time automatically.

For color you separately get the processing chemicals up to approximate temperature (as by water bath, etc.), then pour them in and out of the tank as prompted while the AGO rotates the film and times the different steps. It doesn’t rotate the whole tank, but rather has a small motor that turns the reels inside the Patterson tank. The unit is battery operated, so no AC power cords needed around the sink and liquids. It can sit on the counter, not needing to be in a tank or tray if you are careful about pouring in and out of the unit.

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It has pre-loaded programs for several common chemical kits that include time/temperature compensation to match the kit (Cinestill, Tetenal, Arista Unicolor, Bellini). For B&W it adjusts time based on the Ilford tables. While the main advantage of the unit is color processing, it avoids the need to calculate times for B&W: just enter the time for 20C and it adjusts for the actual temperature.

To simplify the water bath for color, I also got a Cinestill temperature controller for the bath. If I set the bath for 106F, as I decant the solutions into a beaker and pour into the tank they have cooled to about 102F to start, then tend to cool 3-4 degrees during the development cycle. The AGO processor adjusts the time as it cools and shows the adjustment as +/- XX sec as it counts down time and alerts when to pour out and proceed to the next step.

While AGO states they plan to add more programs for other chemistry, the system also has provision to create your own custom programs as store them in the unit. However, I don’t see a method to create a new time/temperature compensation, so you need to select one already in the system to use with your program.

It works with Paterson tanks and reels (also have specialty reels for other sizes), and includes a double tank (2-35 or 1-120) with a tank funnel section modified to allow pouring solutions in with the tank on its side. The horizontal tank reduces the volume of solutions needed to 350ml for the double tank or 250ml for a single tank (which I added) – so for a single 35 the same as I need for a single Nikor tank.

After 50+ years of loading stainless reels I’m still getting used to loading the Paterson reels, but that’s a minor point. I will say Paterson is easier than stainless for 120/220 film. I already used Jobo for 120/220 film, but I see Paterson allows pouring in while on its side. Modifying Jobo would be harder.

The AGO is made by Vintage Visual, a very small startup company. So long term support and viability are a bit risky, but even if the company folds I’ll be happy with my unit.

I’ve used it first for B&W film while testing it out and waiting for color chems, and have processed 10 color films over the last week, and it has worked well. Battery charge is down only 25%, and it recharges easily.

Of course, longevity of the system is unknown, but it is well designed and thought out. We’ll see how the motor and seals hold up only with long term use, but so far for my use it is a very nice solution.

[BWColor]

Much more space efficient when compared to Jobo

[TomB_tx]

I downloaded and installed the latest firmware for the AGO, which is worthwhile. It adds more preset programs for different developers, adds a easier to use interface for creating your own custom sequences for other chemistry and films, and has options for different agitation sequences including semi-stand developing. When using normal constant rotary agitation it now automatically reduces development time for B&W by 15%, so you just set the nominal time at 20C and it corrects for agitation as well as temperature. The AGO functions as a WiFi webserver, so you just connect your PC by WiFi and point your browser to it for firmware install or creating custom sequences by following the web page prompts.

Although I've used Nikor tanks and manual processing for 50+ years, this is all I've used since getting it. It's a well thought out product, and the firmware update shows they are trying to respond to user suggestions with good support. So far the hardware has worked perfectly for me. We'll see how it holds up. The instructions also lists the rechargeable battery specs with instructions on replacing, I've only had to recharge twice, so battery life is good.

[TomB_tx]

BTW, AGO just released another firmware revision, which shows intent to be responsive and offer good support. 

[Einst_Stein]

Is there any real comparison of temperature controlled results vs time compensation? 
The whole points of AGO is this feature. Without proof or validation, it would be meaningless.

[Anbaric]

35 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said:

Is there any real comparison of temperature controlled results vs time compensation? 
The whole points of AGO is this feature. Without proof or validation, it would be meaningless.

I think it's supposed to be based on the instructions for various colour development kits that give different timings for different temperatures, e.g.:

https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/cinestill_tech/Cs41_Powder_Instructions.pdf

and on the table that Ilford has provided for decades for B&W:

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Temperature-compensation-chart.pdf

You'd hope that the manufacturers generally know what they are talking about, though I suppose 'equivalent' combinations of time and temperature might not always give identical results (e.g. some B&W developers may behave a bit differently to others, but there is only one compensation value in the Ilford table).

[Pyrogallol]

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I have used the Ilford time & temperature chart for B&W and found it accurate.

When I did C41 colour film developing I just used a water bath to maintain the right temperature. The developing time is quite short so there isn't much time for the temperture to change. I have used Patterson tanks for 50+ years.

[Einst_Stein]

4 hours ago, Anbaric said:

I think it's supposed to be based on the instructions for various colour development kits that give different timings for different temperatures, e.g.:

https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/cinestill_tech/Cs41_Powder_Instructions.pdf

and on the table that Ilford has provided for decades for B&W:

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Temperature-compensation-chart.pdf

You'd hope that the manufacturers generally know what they are talking about, though I suppose 'equivalent' combinations of time and temperature might not always give identical results (e.g. some B&W developers may behave a bit differently to others, but there is only one compensation value in the Ilford table).

I know those tables are reasonably countable, but they are meant for constant temperature through the process. 
But if the temperature is continues varying, it can be more complicated.

I have tried another method that was based on the chemical temperature and the environment temperature, that is, a two dimensional table. The environment temperature is fixed, the chemical temperature is the initial temperature when the chemical is pored in. The result was not as good as I expected. This is why I expect a validation of AGO method.

[Einst_Stein]

3 hours ago, Pyrogallol said:

I have used the Ilford time & temperature chart for B&W and found it accurate.

When I did C41 colour film developing I just used a water bath to maintain the right temperature. The developing time is quite short so there isn't much time for the temperture to change. I have used Patterson tanks for 50+ years.

B&W tends to be much tolerable. I would not worry. I would not need AGO.

It is the color process that needs the more proper control. 

[Crem]

My AGO arrives this week and I can't wait to try it out with C41. Currently planning to try it with Cinestill chems. Has anyone compared the AGO with Cinestill vs Bellini C41 chems? I've read the Bellini is better, but I've never seen any real comparisons. It sounds like the AGO has separate settings for both of these chems, but not Fuji or Kodak. My understanding is those are the "best" of the C41 chems that labs use. Either way, looking forward to a compact system to home dev with a lot of consistency. Hoping this is the solution otherwise it might be time to get a Filmomat.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Crem

[Anbaric]

27 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said:

I know those tables are reasonably countable, but they are meant for constant temperature through the process. 
But if the temperature is continues varying, it can be more complicated.

I have tried another method that was based on the chemical temperature and the environment temperature, that is, a two dimensional table. The environment temperature is fixed, the chemical temperature is the initial temperature when the chemical is pored in. The result was not as good as I expected. This is why I expect a validation of AGO method.

I think the AGO is measuring the actual temperature of the developer and compensating accordingly, isn't it? So there's no need to estimate cooling as I suppose the 2D table attempts to do (which might not be accurate for a variety of reasons). With the AGO I guess the ambient temperature doesn't matter too much unless it's so cold the developer temperature drops out of the range covered by the table or the required time becomes unreasonably long. The maths needn't be complicated. If it keeps taking temperature readings and it knows the elapsed time, it can figure out what proportion of full development has happened so far and stop when this reaches 100%, assuming the tables are accurate. This review suggests it works well:

https://www.35mmc.com/19/08/2024/ago-film-processor-an-honest-review-of-vintage-visuals-film-processor/

[Einst_Stein]

56 minutes ago, Crem said:

My AGO arrives this week and I can't wait to try it out with C41. Currently planning to try it with Cinestill chems. Has anyone compared the AGO with Cinestill vs Bellini C41 chems? I've read the Bellini is better, but I've never seen any real comparisons. It sounds like the AGO has separate settings for both of these chems, but not Fuji or Kodak. My understanding is those are the "best" of the C41 chems that labs use. Either way, looking forward to a compact system to home dev with a lot of consistency. Hoping this is the solution otherwise it might be time to get a Filmomat.

My most recent C41 is branded with Rollei. I choose it solely for the price. The other C41 I have used before included Kodak and Tetanal. I do don’t notice result differences except the processing time are doffetent, though as didn’t pay much attention. 

[Crem]

1 hour ago, Anbaric said:

I think the AGO is measuring the actual temperature of the developer and compensating accordingly, isn't it? So there's no need to estimate cooling as I suppose the 2D table attempts to do (which might not be accurate for a variety of reasons). With the AGO I guess the ambient temperature doesn't matter too much unless it's so cold the developer temperature drops out of the range covered by the table or the required time becomes unreasonably long. The maths needn't be complicated. If it keeps taking temperature readings and it knows the elapsed time, it can figure out what proportion of full development has happened so far and stop when this reaches 100%, assuming the tables are accurate. This review suggests it works well:

https://www.35mmc.com/19/08/2024/ago-film-processor-an-honest-review-of-vintage-visuals-film-processor/

What I've never understood with C41 is if decreased temperature and additional development time will give the exact same results as a perfectly controlled time and temp development. AGO seems to think it does, but I'd like to see some real scientific proof of this. I won't be surprised if the AGO results in slight color shifts or contrast changes that are then easily compensated for using a modern scanning workflow (like Negative Lab Pro). I'm looking forward to finding out.

[TomB_tx]

I've used my AGO with Cinestill C41 and have been pleased with the results. I haven't tried the Bellini yet.

Yes, the AGO constantly measures the temperature during development and time adjusts as it cools.

You need to start development with a preheat bath to get close to the specified temperature. If you aren't close enough it advises Out Of Range on temperature. This makes me think it uses interpolated tables from the suppliers and not a continuous curve formula, which could extend past the published range. I've done similar compensation using a 5th order curve fit for correction that worked very well - and that was back on an 8088 processor, so I would think AGO could develop something similar.

[Crem]

6 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

I've used my AGO with Cinestill C41 and have been pleased with the results. I haven't tried the Bellini yet.

Yes, the AGO constantly measures the temperature during development and time adjusts as it cools.

You need to start development with a preheat bath to get close to the specified temperature. If you aren't close enough it advises Out Of Range on temperature. This makes me think it uses interpolated tables from the suppliers and not a continuous curve formula, which could extend past the published range. I've done similar compensation using a 5th order curve fit for correction that worked very well - and that was back on an 8088 processor, so I would think AGO could develop something similar.

It makes senes to preheat the bath for the AGO. I normally do this with my pre-rinse step with the Cinestill kit (using distilled water). I've been thinking about wrapping the AGO's Paterson tank in insulated tape to help keep the temps as close to the official spec as possible. Does the AGO make it easy to adjust the dev time for the number of rolls already run through the chems? I keep a table of the adjustment times, but it would be great if the AGO tracked that for me.

That's cool you did work with the 8088. It's been a very long time since I played with one of those. I really got big into programming with the 386. Brings back memories. Sad to see Intel these days compared to back then.

Edited December 3, 2024 by Crem

[TomB_tx]

4 hours ago, Crem said:

Does the AGO make it easy to adjust the dev time for the number of rolls already run through the chems? I keep a table of the adjustment times, but it would be great if the AGO tracked that for me.

Yes, changing times is easy. I printed a simple spreadsheet of adjusted times per rolls developed - you only need the time at nominal temperature. Then when you select the Cinestill c41 program select the time, hit the select arrow and adjust the time down to the new time. It will save that time until reset - so next roll you see the time used previously and just adjust to the next correction. When you shut down the AGO it prompts if you want to restore to the defaults or not.

[BernardC]

12 hours ago, Crem said:

What I've never understood with C41 is if decreased temperature and additional development time will give the exact same results as a perfectly controlled time and temp development.

It depends on your definition of "exact same."

I remember being told (a long time ago) that Kodak could tell who worked what shift on their Kodachrome line, based on test strips. The difference was well within tolerance, but it was still there.

[Crem]

3 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

Yes, changing times is easy. I printed a simple spreadsheet of adjusted times per rolls developed - you only need the time at nominal temperature. Then when you select the Cinestill c41 program select the time, hit the select arrow and adjust the time down to the new time. It will save that time until reset - so next roll you see the time used previously and just adjust to the next correction. When you shut down the AGO it prompts if you want to restore to the defaults or not.

That's great. Glad it has the ability to manually override the settings. I emailed them asking to add more C41 chems to their programming. I noticed it's missing Fuji and Kodak C41 chems which seems a bit odd. I've got a couple more Cinestill kits to go through, but after that my plan is to try out Bellini.

[Crem]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

It depends on your definition of "exact same."

I remember being told (a long time ago) that Kodak could tell who worked what shift on their Kodachrome line, based on test strips. The difference was well within tolerance, but it was still there.

With C41 I suspect there is some change in contrast and/or color shifts if temps drop and time increases. No idea how much though or like you said "within tolerance". My guess is it won't matter much for a digital workflow (scanning, Lightroom, etc). I might try waste a couple test rolls to see how the AGO compares in horizontal mode (no water bath) vs vertical mode (in a water bath with constant temp) before do any significant amount of dev with it.

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[TomB_tx]

Main advantage of "horizontal mode" is lower quantity of chemicals (including wash water by Ilford method) - but mainly a factor for 1-shot development of B&W. Since room temp and water temp here vary a lot I use the AGO for most of my B&W now also. 250mL for a single reel Patterson tank - same as for a single reel Nikor.