am I seeing Leica colour science in Lightroom / camera raw.

[Anbaric]

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Is there no 'Camera Standard' profile for the Q3 (as opposed to 'Adobe Standard')? For many cameras, the additional 'Camera Standard' profile is a camera matching profile that allows you to approximate what you would get if you shot an in-camera jpeg. Does a default conversion using the embedded Q3 profile look similar to an in-camera jpeg?

[jaapv]

Which in-camera jpg? There are quite a few…

[jaapv]

This thread is quickly becoming quite confused. Let’s organize the concepts. This is necessarily rather simplified, so feel free to comment To those who are familiar with this stuff, bear with me for the benefit of the uninitiated  

A sensor is an analog monochrome device which only measures the amount of light captured by each pixel. So to make it color sensitive there will be a color filter in front of each pixel Red Green Green and Blue. These colors are a given because that is the arrangement on the retina of our eyes. All colors we can see are variations in the ratio between these three colors. 
This is the so-called Bayer filter and the main input of the camera designer will be at this stage by defining the spectral response and density of these mini-filters. 
 

The signal from the sensor will be read out and run through a A(nalog) D(igital) C(onverter) to create a digital data set. These data are manipulated to assign a numerical value to each pixel and these are the raw data. These will be run through a digital pipeline and either used to create various JPGs, used to display on the LCD, output as a final picture, thumbnails, etc or will be placed in a container file called DNG and written to the card, together with other data like EXIF, instructions for the computer software, etc. This is not yet an image file, nor does it contain the actual colors, only the data. 
 

The DNG is transferred into the raw converter of your postprocessing program which will transform the data to a file that can be read to produce a color image. Mostly JPG. Doing so, the colour space and gamut will be defined I.e the actual boundaries within the colors can be displayed and which colors can be displayed, also the bit depth, the number of colors that can be displayed.  To do so the program needs a  called a profile and here comes the bit that is the main part of our discussion:  there is a choice here: do we use the cook book provided by -in this case- Leica , the recipes contained within the computer software, your own recipe or one provided by somebody else?   
The choice is entirely up to the bloke on the keyboard, out of Leica’s hands and solely determined by the taste buds of the photographer. 

So no secret sauce, no magic color science marketing, no compulsory identical JPGs, just your own creativity and, sorry to have to mention this, skill. 
 

 

[jaapv]

On the subject of color spaces: these are just the boundaries of the colors that the system can handle. Colors outside those boundaries will bil “pulled in”  and converted to the nearest equivalent color. This implies that moving from a smaller color space to a larger one will never restore the converted color and that during postprocessing at least the color space that was used to capture the image(set during DNG conversion) must be maintained until the imaged is exported.

The main color spaces that a photographer will encounter are: 

The small legacy but still widespread sEGB, best for universal use, the medium-sized Adobe RGB and very similar Apple P3 and the large Prophoto which theoretically contains all visible colors. In general it is wise to use a space that is larger than you need to avoid constraints during editing LR runs in Prophoto in the background Photoshop is L*A*B* based which is another and quite complex type of color space. Not for this discussion. 

[Miltz]

For any doubting what I said here is proof that Adobe does not support Leica color profiles.
By comparison Adobe does support Hasselblad hence why their colors are amazing right out of the box in Adobe products. 

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[Xavi]

So when we talk about Leica colors, which are those that make a photo different from those of other cameras, I understand that they are the DNG imported into Lightroom (in my case) and in the profile that the editor assigns, which would be M-11 in my case.
From here on, it depends on each one what they do with their photo.

[Viv]

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What's "Leica Colour Science"?

[LocalHero1953]

3 hours ago, Miltz said:

For any doubting what I said here is proof that Adobe does not support Leica color profiles.
By comparison Adobe does support Hasselblad hence why their colors are amazing right out of the box in Adobe products. 

 

 

For clarity and avoiding misunderstanding, the column heading that says 'No' is titled 'Camera matching profile available' - which is nothing to do with whether Adobe supports a camera. Adobe does not provide a profile that gives you any of the Leica Looks or in-camera JPG presets, but it certainly supports the Q3 - that is why it is on the list in the first place. See here for the original.

If we're getting into a discussion about how to match Leica's JPGs, I'm out of here.

[Xavi]

37 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

 

If we're getting into a discussion about how to match Leica's JPGs

I also think it is a topic that would be interesting to discuss.

[jaapv]

Not much to discuss. Process one image to match the JPG of your choice and save the settings. 

[evikne]

3 hours ago, Viv said:

What's "Leica Colour Science"?

Perhaps they're thinking of the colors from the Kodak CCD sensors in the M8 and M9 cameras? Leica has apparently tried to match these colors in later CMOS models, with varying degrees of success. 

From what I understand, Leica's profiles don't contain all the information needed for all lighting conditions, so in artificial indoor light the colors can be very strange. For outdoor shots, I sometimes prefer the embedded Leica profile, as it has more natural colors of the sky, and preserves shadows and highlights better, but as a rule I choose an Adobe profile.

[Anbaric]

10 hours ago, jaapv said:

Which in-camera jpg? There are quite a few…

When Adobe support a camera with Camera Matching Profiles, there will typically be a series of profiles corresponding to the different types of in-camera jpeg. So if I load a Nikon file, I see things like 'Camera Standard', 'Camera Vivid', 'Camera Neutral' and 'Camera Landscape' (equivalent to what Nikon calls 'Picture Controls') as well as 'Adobe Standard' in ACR. Generating the camera matching profiles for ACR/LR doesn't necessarily have any input from Nikon - Adobe may just be comparing jpegs with raw conversions and making the profiles themselves, and in my experience with older versions of PS the ACR output doesn't quite match the output of Nikon's own converters (where the equivalent picture controls are available).

Adobe seem only to be offering the baseline level of support for the Q3, 'Adobe Standard'. They aren't going the extra mile and attempting to provide equivalent profiles to those used to make the various in-camera jpegs. For some photographers, who like to start with 'Adobe Standard' anyway, this may be a non-issue. For others, who might prefer to start with something similar to the in-camera jpegs, the option isn't available. They will either have to shoot jpegs (perhaps 'DNG + JPG' to keep their options open), or use presets or custom profiles (self-generated or from third parties) or do a fair bit of tweaking.

It's a shame there aren't Adobe Camera Matching Profiles for most Leica models, as I imagine LR/ACR is the most widely used raw converter in the Leica world, and (alone amongst major manufacturers) Leica provide no 'reference' raw converter of their own. When I shoot Nikon, I never have to bother with raw + jpeg, because I can, if necessary, always get something very close to an in-camera jpeg from the NEF using NX Studio and its built-in profiling data.

Edited July 31, 2024 by Anbaric

[jaapv]

True, but Nikon and Canon can afford to develop their own postprocessing software, which is probably necessary  given the size and composition of their customer base. It is probably difficult and less essential for a small company with mostly savvy customers to do so, especially as their is no legacy software to fall back on. Leica chose a generic raw format to simplify the development of software with the first digital development they ventured in twenty years ago, they could hardly do anything else back then.  And to pay the Adobes and C1-s of this world to do so now? Leicas are expensive enough as it is...

[Anbaric]

1 minute ago, jaapv said:

True, but Nikon and Canon can afford to develop their own postprocessing software. It is probably impossible for a smaller company to do so. And to pay the Adobes and C1-s of this world to do so? Leicas are expensive enough as it is...

Oddly enough, even Hasselblad have their own converter. Others, like Fuji, have done a deal with Silkypix to provide a lightly customised version with profiling for their cameras (the Fuji film simulations are supported in their version, too). Development costs must be low, though Silkypix won't be doing this for free! The previous version (at least) of Nikon's converter was also apparently Silkypix under the hood, but with a substantially different UI.

I don't know if (e.g.) Nikon or Canon actively engage with Adobe to support their cameras fully (it might just be a market share decision by Adobe), but looking at Adobe's list of models that have ACR support, they have Camera Matching Profiles for most or all Nikon and Canon system cameras. I wonder if fully supporting more exotic cameras like the Hasselblads mentioned above did involve some deal with Adobe?

C1 used to provide free Express versions for Nikon, Sony and Canon, presumably also the result of some deal, but they are now defunct. There is now a more basic C1-based Fuji raw converter, less functional than Express, so I assume they've come to some new arrangement.

[frame-it]

2 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Oddly enough, even Hasselblad have their own converter. Others, like Fuji, have done a deal with Silkypix to provide a lightly customised version with profiling for their cameras (the Fuji film simulations are supported in their version, too).

do u have a download link for the fujifilm "silkypix" ?

[jaapv]

4 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Oddly enough, even Hasselblad have their own converter. Others, like Fuji, have done a deal with Silkypix to provide a lightly customised version with profiling for their cameras (the Fuji film simulations are supported in their version, too). Development costs must be low, though Silkypix won't be doing this for free! The previous version (at least) of Nikon's converter was also apparently Silkypix under the hood, but with a substantially different UI.

I don't know if (e.g.) Nikon or Canon actively engage with Adobe to support their cameras fully (it might just be a market share decision by Adobe), but looking at Adobe's list of models that have ACR support, they have Camera Matching Profiles for most or all Nikon and Canon system cameras. I wonder if fully supporting more exotic cameras like the Hasselblads mentioned above did involve some deal with Adobe?

C1 used to provide free Express versions for Nikon, Sony and Canon, presumably also the result of some deal, but they are now defunct. There is now a more basic C1-based Fuji raw converter, less functional than Express, so I assume they've come to some new arrangement.

Yes, but Hasselblad is owned by DJI, a large Chinese drone manufacturer. I’m sure that this is quite helpful in the software department. 

[frame-it]

5 hours ago, Viv said:

What's "Leica Colour Science"?

there is no such thing, its all based on nostalgia and film images shot with leica lenses, which have nothing to do with leica, but agfa, kodak etc etc

for those who wanna delve into this rabbit hole: https://www.libraw.org/docs

 

https://www.photo.net/forums/topic/182295-dng-colorimetric-interpretation/

Edited July 31, 2024 by frame-it

[jaapv]

But very handy for the marketing department…To the point of bringing out a silly looks app. 

[frame-it]

Just now, jaapv said:

But very handy for the marketing department…

leica should have done a deal and added all the kodak + agfa film simulations into the M11 and SL3

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica Q

[Anbaric]

3 minutes ago, frame-it said:

do u have a download link for the fujifilm "silkypix" ?

Here it is:

https://fujifilm-x.com/global/products/software/raw-file-converter-ex-powered-by-silkypix/

https://fujifilm-x.com/en-gb/support/download/software/raw-file-converter-ex-powered-by-silkypix/

If you are interested in C1, the current free offering is here:

https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/articles/14964802469533-Fujifilm-RAW-Converter

If you have an older Fuji (launched before ~2020) you may also still be able to use the original Capture One Express, which is more capable. You need a camera that is supported by C1 12.1.5 or earlier:

https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002718118-Camera-Models-and-RAW-Files-Supported-by-Capture-One

The 12.1.5 installer is here (need to create account):

https://www.captureone.com/en/account/download#previous

Don't attempt to use a C1 Express licence key, which will no longer work. Instead, go to 'Other Options' and select Fuji Express (12.1.5 is I think the last version that installs the free Express version without requiring a licence key).

Note that C1 killed off later versions of Express at very short notice, including installed versions (!). I don't think this is possible for 12.1.5 or earlier, but presumably it is with their current cut-down offering.