Does Nikon Zf outperform Leica SL (601) in manual not-M lenses?

[OleBe]

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb Zhenya:

Thank you for your opinion!

Could you please explain more about the quality of their EVF, because I hate to compose the picture on the screen, so good EVF is a No 1 in my decision list.

Very welcome! The EVF in terms of clarity (resolution) and refresh rate is not comparable to the SL2-S, but I cannot say it is bad either. For me it is doing the trick, especially if used with the manual focus assist tools. The Leica one is better but I did find myself zooming in a lot to check focus, especially with lenses like the Nokton 50mm f1.0, which slows down my workflow significantly. The Zf is the more convenient tool in that respect. As I said, if you fancy a higher build quality and possibly a better EVF, but can live with the limitations of the (what it feels like compared to Zf) previous generation camera, than the SL2-S might be a great choice.

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[MFT-Lehrling]

I can just advice you to try the body handling in person. All the other stuff is allready written. 
The ZF is a handling nightmare with 0 ergonomics. It even comes with a grip because it is that bad.
For me it was outright garbage, when i have to hold it longer. Even worse than e.g. A Z6. i do not see a point sacrificing looks for ergonomics. never. 
This point can never be discussed in a forum, because of the preferences, muscle memory and individual hand/ finger sizes. 
The SL2 always "looked" like a brick to me, till i tried it. It is suprisingly good. (got the thumbs up as addition and RRS L-Bracket when handling the big AF lenses)
Still not the perfect camera ergonomic wise, because the back/thumb area is just stupid flat and has not enough grip, compared to other cameras. But miles a head from the ZF. it feels like a camera and not some edgy-hipster-design-box😜

Some additions: (SL2/S)
-It is great that you can quickly adjust the focal length of the lens for the ibis with a dedicated menu, just press 1 button and you are in the focal length area. (okay, maybe the leica m-l Adapter is needed for that? --> just create custom user-menus for objektives that you regularly use, also quick and easy to change)
-EVF Quality& Magnification is top tier for manual (just press the the Joystick for magnification when critical focus is needed, yeah i know this might sound dumb but it realy is a drastic distinction from all other cameras, this joystick is just lovely, even with gloves!)
-!DO NOT INSTALL THE LATEST FIRMWARE! (will remove the joystick& magnification function) 

--> These points that initialy brought me to the SL-System. Despite the price tag and "so so" perfomance in all other departments. The bonus are of course, the APO-SL lenses and huge variety of good L-Mount alternatives from other manufacturers sigma and panasonic.
 

[Malabito]

19 minutes ago, MFT-Lehrling said:

I can just advice you to try the body handling in person. All the other stuff is allready written. 
The ZF is a handling nightmare with 0 ergonomics. It even comes with a grip because it is that bad.
For me it was outright garbage, when i have to hold it longer. Even worse than e.g. A Z6. i do not see a point sacrificing looks for ergonomics. never. 
This point can never be discussed in a forum, because of the preferences, muscle memory and individual hand/ finger sizes. 
The SL2 always "looked" like a brick to me, till i tried it. It is suprisingly good. (got the thumbs up as addition and RRS L-Bracket when handling the big AF lenses)
Still not the perfect camera ergonomic wise, because the back/thumb area is just stupid flat and has not enough grip, compared to other cameras. But miles a head from the ZF. it feels like a camera and not some edgy-hipster-design-box😜

Some additions: (SL2/S)
-It is great that you can quickly adjust the focal length of the lens for the ibis with a dedicated menu, just press 1 button and you are in the focal length area. (okay, maybe the leica m-l Adapter is needed for that? --> just create custom user-menus for objektives that you regularly use, also quick and easy to change)
-EVF Quality& Magnification is top tier for manual (just press the the Joystick for magnification when critical focus is needed, yeah i know this might sound dumb but it realy is a drastic distinction from all other cameras, this joystick is just lovely, even with gloves!)
-!DO NOT INSTALL THE LATEST FIRMWARE! (will remove the joystick& magnification function) 

--> These points that initialy brought me to the SL-System. Despite the price tag and "so so" perfomance in all other departments. The bonus are of course, the APO-SL lenses and huge variety of good L-Mount alternatives from other manufacturers sigma and panasonic.
 

Handling nightmare is your personal opinion, and many differ as many agree. For me, it is not really an issue. Even though I don't have a ZF, I have played with one, and with small primes, which Nikon does offer, to me it actually handled quite well, and with the portable grip even better. Yes, I do think the handling on the SL2s is lovely. Actually, they made a mess with the SL3, but all of this is subjective; it's a personal opinion.

 

The only real way to judge handling is by actually handling the camera. For example, many here praise the SL3 handling, but to me it is atrocious. They killed the best thing that the SL2 line had to offer, (but that's a personal point of view).

[MFT-Lehrling]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Malabito:

Handling nightmare is your personal opinion

Of course it is. Thats why i wrote it from my perspective and stated that these things should be tested and not discussed😀. It serves no point in start arguing about these things.

[Malabito]

8 minutes ago, MFT-Lehrling said:

Of course it is. Thats why i wrote it from my perspective and stated that these things should be tested and not discussed😀. It serves no point in start arguing about these things.

True. I love the sl2s handling, thats whats keeping me happy with it and also the colors. The idea of the zf is gving major GAS, but the sl2s even with its relative age is beautiful to handle. I am now trying to decide if i should keep spending on l mount lenses, (already have a few including sl apo) or move to nikon Smart thing to do is keep spending on glass and forget about new bodies

[MFT-Lehrling]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Malabito:

I am now trying to decide if i should keep spending on l mount lenses, (already have a few including sl apo) or move to nikon  

But why? What is the benefit of Nikon? If you do not need the video& AF stuff to be up to date, i see no point in chosing nikon. They only got 2 realy good cameras, which are both expensive (Z8&Z9). All lenses are more expensive than the panasonic ones, you do not have some "special" Apo ones... (ok the 58 0.95, but 2kg hardly makes it viable for most). I do not hate the Z-Mount, but when you are using many manual lenses, SL-Line ist the only one that checks so many boxes... and of course the vast selection of native AF lenses. 

Nikon has only 1 benefit for me, when it comes down to comparing it with the L-Mount.
That is the tele range, with their lightweight approach in the prime area. The 400 4.5, 600 6.3 and 800 6.3 are phenomenal designs, that handle so well. Outstanding. But you absolutely have to use them on a Z8/Z9. So the "money" aspect should not be a problem for you😜.

And sigma has released the 500 5.6 for L-& E-Mount, which is realy a good approach money wise!
What i forgot to mention is the realy awesome M-L Adapter with M-Lenses. It is just seamingless to use. Almost "normal"☺️

Iam just lucky that leica realy missed the mark with the newest generation, so i can skip the SL3😇. Sometimes i think they made it deliberately, so the soon to be released S4 has some unique features... but let's wait that one out first. 



 

[Simone_DF]

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19 hours ago, MFT-Lehrling said:

I do not hate the Z-Mount, but when you are using many manual lenses, SL-Line ist the only one that checks so many boxes... and of course the vast selection of native AF lenses. 

Well, Nikon has also a very good selection of native Z mount chipped Voigtlander lenses, which carry a lot of benefits, like automatic zoom and eye focus when you twist the focus ring, no need for an adapter, etc. 

[MFT-Lehrling]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Simone_DF:

Well, Nikon has also a very good selection of native Z mount chipped Voigtlander lenses, which carry a lot of benefits, like automatic zoom and eye focus when you twist the focus ring, no need for an adapter, etc. 

Fair point...
But buying NEW manual lenses that are not M-Mount is not that sustainable or clever in my opinion. after a few years there is hardly demand and low resell value. And most of us have tons of older lenses.
But if you are in the market for brand new manual lenses this could be a good option.. despite the not so good evf of the Z-Mount for manual lenses.

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, MFT-Lehrling said:

Fair point...
But buying NEW manual lenses that are not M-Mount is not that sustainable or clever in my opinion. after a few years there is hardly demand and low resell value. And most of us have tons of older lenses.
But if you are in the market for brand new manual lenses this could be a good option.. despite the not so good evf of the Z-Mount for manual lenses.

That depends on the lens. I don’t know about Z mount lenses, but Sony FE manual lenses have a good resale market. But yes, in general M lenses are easier to resell due to the vast user base. 

[intangiblethings]

My million-dollar question is, what does the Zf do that my M10-P can't do image-quality wise? I have an M10M/MP/M6 so I'll always have that rangefinder experience when needed. 

Appreciate all the insights! 

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, intangiblethings said:

My million-dollar question is, what does the Zf do that my M10-P can't do image-quality wise? I have an M10M/MP/M6 so I'll always have that rangefinder experience when needed. 

Appreciate all the insights! 

The Zf has a newer sensor with less highlights clipping, which I remember was a pain on the M10, and better shadow recovery. These two improvements may have no impact on your photography. 
IBIS may also help when shooting, especially in low light

[tomasis7]

On 7/12/2024 at 9:45 AM, Zhenya said:

Hello, a newcomer is here 🙂

I was heavily engaged in amateur film photography in 2000-es and have collected a bush of film cameras/lenses but my last acquisition of photography equipment was in 2013 when I have bought a Sony A7 mostly to use it with my manual lenses. I was not very satisfied with the results comparing to film + evf was so worse comparing to ovf of my Minolta XD-7/11 so since then for digital photo I used mostly PS and my smartphone.

But couple of weeks ago YouTube recommendations showed to me a video with some new mirrorless cameras and my interest for "digital body + manual lenses" arised again.

Googling the threads on the photography forums has left my attention to the three variants of digital cameras: Panasonic Lumix S5ii, Nikon Zf and... Leica SL series, which are good for manual lens combo.

I don't like the look of Panasonic, so I choose between Nikon Zf and Leica SL now. Not SL2-s, because SL (used) and Zf (new) are in the same price tag now, but SL2-s is $1000 more expensive.

I've read several opinions that Zf has much more advantages (IBIS, low light etc) than SL, but is it really necessary to make digital photos now as my film cameras don't have any of them.

SL is old but it is Leica.

So maybe someone can give an advice about quality of pictures these cameras could give with non-Leica manual lenses. My collection is full of MD Rokkors, Zeiss Jena and some good examples of Soviet LTM lenses, but I don't have any Leica lenses (so sad).

Thanks in advance!

 

i was in same place as you. I looked at ZF and SL and ended up with the SL 601 in this year 2024. My motivation is

-the simple, uncluttered layout of the body.

-the big viewfinder.

-a good quality sensor that can take in odd angle light ray coming through M lenses. It is important if you want to play with old manual lenses.

To make good photos, you need a SIMPLE camera. I hate non-stop "noise" about extra features, billions of buttons, AF and all other crazy stuff. 

You can always add SL2 later when prices drop down. The high iso is so good and I dont feel any need for Sl2. 

Edited July 18, 2024 by tomasis7

[Zhenya]

6 minutes ago, tomasis7 said:

i was in same place as you. I looked at ZF and SL and ended up with the SL 601 in this year 2024. My motivation is

-the simple, uncluttered layout of the body.

-the big viewfinder.

-a good quality sensor that can take in odd angle light ray coming through M lenses. It is important if you want to play with old manual lenses.

Yes, I think the same. But SL is 10 years older than Zf and this is big gap in digital camera making I suppose. So still is the viewfinder of Zf significantly worse than on SL? I haven't the chance to compare them by myself so I need an opinion from other users.

[tomasis7]

4 minutes ago, Zhenya said:

Yes, I think the same. But SL is 10 years older than Zf and this is big gap in digital camera making I suppose. So still is the viewfinder of Zf significantly worse than on SL? I haven't the chance to compare them by myself so I need an opinion from other users.

Too big gap? I disagree. Unless worrying in case it breaks and dies.

My current digital is Epson RD-1. Previous was Nikon D70. I expect my SL 601 to go next 10 years. I dont care about hype, 10 years old younger or whatever.

Buying a Leica is like buying a Hasselblad or medium format. It is a special feeling. 

I have touched Nikon FM2, F6, F100, and Olympus OM2 as well.  But to make a simple digital camera is difficult. Only Hasseblad is the competitor.

[Simone_DF]

20 minutes ago, Zhenya said:

is the viewfinder of Zf significantly worse than on SL? 

No. 

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Zhenya said:

Yes, I think the same. But SL is 10 years older than Zf and this is big gap in digital camera making I suppose. So still is the viewfinder of Zf significantly worse than on SL? I haven't the chance to compare them by myself so I need an opinion from other users.

Yes, modern sensors have evolved over the last decade. But for 98% of regular photography this is completely irrelevant. My DMR from 2004 still takes beautiful photographs (that is, if I should manage to take one)

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Yes, modern sensors have evolved over the last decade. But for 98% of regular photography this is completely irrelevant. My DMR from 2004 still takes beautiful photographs (that is, if I should manage to take one)

I agree, things haven't changed that much. The most significant difference is in low-light (EV 3200 and up). You won't see much difference between EV 100 and 1600.

There have been dynamic range improvements over the years, but most of those happened before the SL came out. You might get a stop more DR in a recent camera, but you won't even notice unless your exposure is way off.

[st4u]

On 7/18/2024 at 4:33 PM, BernardC said:

I agree, things haven't changed that much. The most significant difference is in low-light (EV 3200 and up). You won't see much difference between EV 100 and 1600.

There have been dynamic range improvements over the years, but most of those happened before the SL came out. You might get a stop more DR in a recent camera, but you won't even notice unless your exposure is way off.

 

also my opinion, and then you can use DxO Pure 3 (or not necessarely 4) and you wil have no noise...

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[Zhenya]

Thank you all for your opinions. After some thoughts I've ended up with Nikon Zf and I'm extremely happy with it. Damn, it really looks like a film SLR, so my manual lenses don't stand out of it.

I even flipped over the LCD screen and shoot photos as "film", "processing" them later at home on my PC.