I hope Leica can come up with a unique medium format

[tommycj]

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I would would the Leica S4 to be:

-DSLR style (NOT mirrorless)

- 5 x 4 ratio sensor, this would be a game changer for me, coming from 6x7 film. 

-Competitive pricing with the Fuji 100s - it can be more, but not double the price - no one will buy that!) 

-Have a half decent screen on the back (the S3’s screen is terrible)

-everything else similar to the S3, as the ergonomics and image quality are spectacular. 

 

 

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[Sarnian]

And the same amazing battery life as the other S cameras. Those things are tiny nuclear power stations! 

[robb]

The elephant in the room is that on the other thread posted in this section is 9 month turn around for Leica to service an s lens / s camera?

who is going to buy into a high dollar system (as a working pro) with that service time table?..

will be a non-starter.  Unfortunately.  I’d like to get an S4 with lenses when available but really can’t go that route unless Leica actually has a service solution.  Their track record on buggy sl3 and m11 is already less than confidence inspiring.  My sl2 and sl2-s have been super solid… 

Robb

[ropo54]

3 hours ago, robb said:

The elephant in the room is that on the other thread posted in this section is 9 month turn around for Leica to service an s lens / s camera?

who is going to buy into a high dollar system (as a working pro) with that service time table?..

will be a non-starter.  Unfortunately.  I’d like to get an S4 with lenses when available but really can’t go that route unless Leica actually has a service solution.  Their track record on buggy sl3 and m11 is already less than confidence inspiring.  My sl2 and sl2-s have been super solid… 

Robb

I would agree that this inability to timely 'repair'  does Leica a total disservice.  From a management standpoint to a public relations failure. If they are going to make/sell exceptional products, they need to figure out not only how to produce  them and market them but also  how to manage what they produce.   More resources, better personnel  training, more facilities to handle their niche products?   "9 months" waiting period is an "average"  means some services will be shorter, but other services will take even longer!  As you correctly point out, WHO is going to want to be invested in such a system even if it is exceptional?  

(To their credit they have offered a loaner lens).

Rob

 

Edited August 5, 2024 by ropo54

[frame-it]

13 minutes ago, ropo54 said:

I would agree that this inability to timely 'repair'  does Leica a total disservice.  From a management standpoint to a public relations failure. If they are going to make/sell exceptional products, they need to figure out not only how to produce  them and market them but also  how to manage what they produce.   More resources, better personnel  training, more facilities to handle their niche products?   "9 months" waiting period is an "average"  means some services will be shorter, but other services will take even longer!  As you correctly point out, WHO is going to want to be invested in such a system even if it is exceptional?  

(To their credit they have offered a loaner lens).

Rob

 

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[BernardC]

7 hours ago, robb said:

I’d like to get an S4 with lenses when available but really can’t go that route unless Leica actually has a service solution.  Their track record on buggy sl3 and m11 is already less than confidence inspiring.  My sl2 and sl2-s have been super solid… 

It look like the S4 will a continuation of the SL series, not the S series. Reliability should be good, if only because there won't be many moving parts.

As a professional, the usual precautions apply: wait a few month for any initial bugs to get worked-out before you fully commit. The SL3 is a perfect example obviously, but several Canon and Nikon high-end products started life with serious bugs.

[Stuart Richardson]

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They did, at least initially, have a better service program and track record of S system. They had a quicker turnaround and loaners etc. It sounds like that was difficult for them though, so I am not sure they will attempt it again. I would say the best insurance with Leica these days seems to be from having a good relationship with a good dealer...someone who will give you a loaner or help navigate Leica. That is one of the hard parts for me here, they don't have a dealer with that kind of reliability. Leica Store Miami positions themselves that way and seem to do well with it. Tony Rose was/is great too at Popflash, but I don't think he is in the same position now as he was when the S system was introduced, since Leica has gone to its boutique model. But for those looking to get an S4, it is probably good to cultivate that kind of relationship and wait a bit for the model to come out and get the bugs sorted (assuming there are any after the beta test...let's hope not!).

[ropo54]

Perhaps, but Leica Miami did not want to help with physically sending my lenses back (2 occasions) to Leica NJ/ Germany.  They were happy to give me instructions as to how to do it, but did not want to take possession to ship back with their other gear being sent to Leica.  "Too busy".  (I was disappointed by their response). 

[Pieter12]

3 hours ago, ropo54 said:

Perhaps, but Leica Miami did not want to help with physically sending my lenses back (2 occasions) to Leica NJ/ Germany.  They were happy to give me instructions as to how to do it, but did not want to take possession to ship back with their other gear being sent to Leica.  "Too busy".  (I was disappointed by their response). 

Too busy? With what, counting their money? If they are an authorized and sanctioned Leica dealer, I would think it is their obligation to take any equipment that is still serviced by Leica and handle it from there. Makes me a bit leery of ever being a customer of theirs, and would warrant a note to Leica AG about their attitude.

[BernardC]

I'm not sure that I see any advantage from dropping your camera off at a store, vs. Fedex or UPS. The courier option should be much more convenient in most cases, and your camera will get to Leica faster.

[ropo54]

4 hours ago, BernardC said:

I'm not sure that I see any advantage from dropping your camera off at a store, vs. Fedex or UPS. The courier option should be much more convenient in most cases, and your camera will get to Leica faster.

Only to take a look at the lens,  provide the proper forms for completion, and their packing and shipping in bulk with their other items being sent to NJ/Germany for repair.  (Certainly would have been more convenient for me).

Edited August 6, 2024 by ropo54

[Pieter12]

4 hours ago, BernardC said:

I'm not sure that I see any advantage from dropping your camera off at a store, vs. Fedex or UPS. The courier option should be much more convenient in most cases, and your camera will get to Leica faster.

The authorized Leica store would be responsible for packing, shipping and paperwork. Not something I would consider negligible and certainly more convenient. Also I would think Leica AG would give priority to a repair sent from one of their dealers vs an individual.

[BernardC]

1 minute ago, Pieter12 said:

The authorized Leica store would be responsible for packing, shipping and paperwork. Not something I would consider negligible and certainly more convenient. Also I would think Leica AG would give priority to a repair sent from one of their dealers vs an individual.

The paperwork consists of one form with address, serial numbers, fault description, etc. It's the same either way, you still need to provide your contact information and describe what you want them to fix. Shipping is also similar since there are tons of drop-off locations for the major shippers. You will probably drive by several on the way to your nearest Leica store. That leaves packing, which may be easier at a store, if you don't have supplies on-hand.

I hope that Leica NJ doesn't give priority based on the shipping method. They've told me in the past that items are processed in the order received.

It can be more convenient to go through a dealer, and dealers may also have some pull that an individual doesn't have, but it probably doesn't make a difference in most cases. Unfortunately the process is slow either way.

[Pieter12]

5 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The paperwork consists of one form with address, serial numbers, fault description, etc. It's the same either way, you still need to provide your contact information and describe what you want them to fix. Shipping is also similar since there are tons of drop-off locations for the major shippers. You will probably drive by several on the way to your nearest Leica store. That leaves packing, which may be easier at a store, if you don't have supplies on-hand.

I hope that Leica NJ doesn't give priority based on the shipping method. They've told me in the past that items are processed in the order received.

It can be more convenient to go through a dealer, and dealers may also have some pull that an individual doesn't have, but it probably doesn't make a difference in most cases. Unfortunately the process is slow either way.

Leica NJ is not repairing anything, the equipment is sent to Germany. If you send it on your own, there is customs paperwork to be completed and you have to pay for the shipping. 

[BernardC]

22 minutes ago, Pieter12 said:

Leica NJ is not repairing anything, the equipment is sent to Germany. If you send it on your own, there is customs paperwork to be completed and you have to pay for the shipping. 

Most S system repairs go to Germany, although they will perform a check in NJ before forwarding. Some other repair work is done by Leica in the US (M lens coding, in my experience).

I live in Canada, so Leica US is our "local" distributor. Customs paperwork needs to be filled either way. It was very simple the last time I had to send something in, I picked "Photographic Equipment" and "for repair" on the Fedex site and had no further customs hassle. I had to pay Canadian taxes on the invoice amount when the equipment was returned, but that has nothing to do with Leica.

[davidmknoble]

LOL, I feel like I wrote a school paper, so I added subhaeadings!

Leica Miami

I can tell you I have dealt with Leica Miami for 2 decades.  They are one of two privately owned Lecia dealers in the US and do an incredible job.  If they could not send things to Germany there was likely a good reason.  I have been told by two Leica stores in the US that the repair process has changed and things have to go through NJ now except for very specific items and repairs.  It is a Leica company change, not a store by store change.

Battery and S Lens Repair

That said, there are two themes here I’d add to:

1. The battery is large for the S system, but it also is typically used to fire a shutter, move a mirror and a focus motor.  Most don’t use Live view 100% of the time.  When the S goes mirrorless, the sensor will be on all the time and an electronic (not optical) viewfinder will also need power.  I would almost guarantee the battery life decreases in number of shots.

2. The S lenses are unique in that they have mechanical focusing systems, not focus by wire like the SL system. I have to believe that changes the CLA process from the SL system and likely they will be designing a lens that has a more efficient replace / repair process than the S lenses.  In my opinion, the mechanical linkage makes the lens a longer lasting lens in that only the focus motor needs to power things, but it can be used without having to use the motor.  Another power drainage is focus by wire.

Sensor Size and Crop

I also don’t care the crop factor of the sensor.  Even with the M11 and S3 sensors we have more than enough pixels to crop.  I frequently shoot at square format and easily get over the ‘wasted’ pixels on the sides.  One of my favorite Ansel Adams photographs, which I have from Yosemite, is the moon over half-dome.  Ansel shot that with a hasselblad and the 150mm lens.  That is a square format and he said he knew when he took the image series he would crop it in the vertical.  If anything, I would love a large square sensor so we could crop vertical or horizontal and anywhere in between with ease!

[BernardC]

Good point about the battery. Leica will want to move to the SL/Q battery, which has less capacity. Maybe they can work with Panasonic on that, since Panasonic will probably want a bigger battery for the S1H replacement.

[Pieter12]

10 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

If they could not send things to Germany there was likely a good reason.  I have been told by two Leica stores in the US that the repair process has changed and things have to go through NJ now except for very specific items and repairs.

Yes, but that is not an excuse not to send the items to NJ to be forwarded on to Germany. That is what the Leica store in Los Angeles did for me.

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[Jeff S]

On 8/5/2024 at 10:19 AM, Stuart Richardson said:

Tony Rose was/is great too at Popflash, but I don't think he is in the same position now as he was when the S system was introduced, since Leica has gone to its boutique model. 

Tony was a major S system seller at Popflash years ago. But he soured on the system during the S lens motor fiasco. He shared frustrations about his having to deal constantly with customer repairs, even having to deal with lost orders and lack of timely response from Leica. He eventually stopped recommending the system.  I think that the shift to boutique shops was a coincidental change.

Pretty bad when a major dealer also loses faith in service support.

Jeff

Edited August 8, 2024 by Jeff S

[Stuart Richardson]

6 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Tony was a major S system seller at Popflash years ago. But he soured on the system during the S lens motor fiasco. He shared frustrations about his having to deal constantly with customer repairs, even having to deal with lost orders and lack of timely response from Leica. He eventually stopped recommending the system.  I think that the shift to boutique shops was a coincidental change.

Pretty bad when a major dealer also loses faith in service support.

Jeff

Yes, I was probably part of that. I ordered my S2 from him and it was broken on delivery (AF was inaccurate). They tried to fix it, and it was returned to me and was still broken. They replaced it and then it was fine for the rest of its lifetime. I talked to a few stores about it over the years and never heard from one that was enthusiastic to sell the S cameras. Some thought they were great cameras, but I think they were very hard to sell and expensive to stock when few bought them etc.